Problem with the latest run of Kato GS-4?

[peteski]

I just acquired the BNSF version (to try to figure out how Kato addressed the loose driver bearing problem).  However I noticed another problem that crept up again:  The blackening layer on the drivers is very thick and non-conductive.  This problem is identical to what happened on the previous run of American freedom Train version.  Basically the loco only picks up electricity through the tender wheels (which are treated with different type of blackener which doe s not impede electric pickup).  Instead of creating new writeup, the one I created for the AFT loco describes the problem and solution.  See http://forum.atlasrr.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=65614 (all 3 pages of it) 

If any of you have this loco, could you test its loco's electric pickup by running it with the tender being lifted off the tracks (maybe put the tender on a piece of paper placed over the track)?

I wonder if this is a problem common to all the locos in the current run and whether @nightmare0331 is aware of it?

[carlso]

Peteski,

I have one of the "new" versions but have not had time, as yet, to run it. I can't answer your question regarding the blackening of wheels.

So, my question for you, is what have you found with the bearings on the driver axles. Again, I have not had time to check mine but I am afraid you will find that KATO actually did nothing about that problem. Hope I am wrong, but don't think so.

Carl

[peteski]

Peteski,

I have one of the "new" versions but have not had time, as yet, to run it. I can't answer your question regarding the blackening of wheels.

So, my question for you, is what have you found with the bearings on the driver axles. Again, I have not had time to check mine but I am afraid you will find that KATO actually did nothing about that problem. Hope I am wrong, but don't think so.

Carl

I was going to address that later (way too many projects on my workbench)! 
I took the bottom plate off and took a quick peek - the bearings seem to stay put in the guides in the chassis. Visually (only a quick glance) I don't see any difference between the now and old chassis. But I have not had a chance to do any closeup visual inspection or measurements.  But they seem to have fixed the problem.

[EspeeGoldenState]

A buddy and I acquired two from this release, him  the BNSF version and I the Daylight version. Mine has been fine, but I've only ran it for about an hour or two so far. His was fubar from removal from the case. It ran fine for about 2 minutes before it started to bind and freeze going forward. In reverse it was fine. He ended up having to send it back to Kato.

Ive replaced my original run GS4 with the newer drive wheels and haven't had an issue with them either. I think he might have gotten something in the gears, but being brand new he was reluctant to open it up and see what the problem was for sure.

Chris

[peteski]

Let me repeat my original request: 
If any of you have this loco, could you test its loco's electric pickup by running it with the tender being lifted off the tracks (maybe put the tender on a piece of paper placed over the track)?

[carlso]

peteski,

I have done what you asked above as well as what you asked in the old Atlas thread.

1. I placed the loco on the rails and it ran forward and backwards.
2. I placed a piece of paper under the tender trucks and it still ran.

3. I place it in a cradle and touched the  tire area only on all four drivers, one axle at a time, and it ran.
4. I placed power to the tender trucks only and it ran.

Just let my curiosity get to me and pulled the driver retention plate off and found:

1. The "new" release does indeed have the revised set of drivers, no plastic.
2. Unlike any KATO that I have ever purchased the light oil is running off of the bearings ? ? ? and all over the bottom
     of each frame half. What a mess, I will have to clean with alky when I install sound decoder.
3. The driver tire area is not colored but rather very shiny as are tender wheels.
4. I am sure that I see another sloppy set of drivers as after running just a matter of minutes the bearing on #4
    driver, fireman side, had come out of its groove and who knows what it was going to do. I will have to borrow Max
    Magliaro's "fix", if he does not object, and give it a try.

Carl

[mmagliaro]

Object?      Certainly not.  I posted what I did to fix that so that other people could fix it themselves. 
I was happy to do a few for people who asked, but I surely wouldn't want to fix them all.

Ugh.  I suppose I should learn a CAD package, make a drawing and make a Shapeways part for this.
I admit it would be handy, but it would be number 97 on my list of things "to do" right now.

[peteski]

Thanks Carl!  That is very interesting . . . It sounds like you have a different version or run of the drivers.  Sounds like the blackening on your loco's drivers have the same blackener as used on the tender wheels.  That one conducts electricity well.

Mine (just as I encountered in the AFT version I described in the A-Board thread I refereed to earlier) has all of the wheels which have the rims painted white (the leading truck and the drivers) have different kind of blackened applied to them.  It seems to be applied much thicker and it has a dull-dirty-black finish without metallic sheen.  The trailing truck and tender wheels has a "standard" Kato blackener applied. It is a very thin and it has a shiny metallic black finish.   Again, identical to what I described in the A-board thread.

When I took the bottom cover off I also did not notice excessive lubrication. While it was more than I would use, it was not nearly as heavy as I often see on other brand locos.  With the cover still removed I also wiggled all the axles sideways and up and down and none of the bearings got dislodged.

I wonder if this run was made in several batches (or by different factories)?  That could explain the discrepancies.

[carlso]

" Mine (just as I encountered in the AFT version I described in the A-Board thread I refereed to earlier) has all of the wheels which have the rims painted white (the leading truck and the drivers) have different kind of blackened applied to them."

peteski,

Now I am confused, my normal state, when you mention that yours has rims painted white on the leading truck and drivers. Just to make sure we are discussing the same locomotive I can say that my new release Daylight version does not have white walls nor does the leading and trailing trucks. Neither the leading or trailing truck are conductive. Everything is plastic. If your bearings (axle bearings) seem to fit well, I will think about trading with you, LOL.

Who knows about where these were actually manufactured. KATO does not share much info such as that. I mean their KATO USA told me on the phone that they would not know exactly what was to be done to the "new version" until they actually had a loco in hand for inspection.

Always have fun,
Carl


PS: I shall fumble, bumble my way into making Max's fix for the #2 & #4 driver, when I too get to work on my 97 list.

[peteski]

Let's clarify things.  Mine is the black BNSF GS-4 (so it is undeniably the latest release).  It also came in a sizable cardboard box (same as the FEF3) and not the clear plastic jewel case of the previous GS-4 runs (which were Daylight and all-black versions).

If yours is packaged in a cardboard box and has the new drivers then it is also most likely from the latest run, but obviously not the same run as the initial run of the BNSF GS-4.    So, the plot thickens . . . and I thought that both BNSF and Daylight versions from the latest run would have been done at the same time, using the same parts. Well, other than the shell and drivers, since the BNSF does have white-trimmed tires on the leading truck and drivers.

Curiously, when I had the original problem with my AFT GS-4, its drivers and leading truck wheels had white trim on the tires while the Daylight version did not.  Maybe Kato, for some reason uses a different blackening process for the white-trim wheels?

I think that we need more owners to chime in with the info about their SP Daylight *AND* BNSF models (frome the current run).

[carlso]

Mine is in a cardboard box, same as the FEF. It is the latest version.

Carl

[peteski]

Mine is in a cardboard box, same as the FEF. It is the latest version.

Carl

Ok. I guess to answer my question (about the driver's blackening) we'll have to wait foe someone who owns the BNSF version. I suspect not many people bought that one.  I'm also surprised that the driver bearings on yours are floppy.

[KenF1941]

Petesky, I have two of the Kato "4449" BNSF GS-4 models.  The drivers of both engines are coated with the non-conductive paint - tested as you suggested by insulating tender from rails.  One of the two also has destroyed two EM13 DCC modules  - inexplicable shorting.  The second BNSF model has been run in DCC mode for about a dozen times around my project-in-process without incidence. In addition, I have two of the new 4449 daylight "LINES" models but have not tested either at this time.

In reference to your A-board posting about the AFT models.  I purchased four of those at a fire sale for the purpose of turning them into Southern Pacific war-time models.  They all have the same problem with the drivers.  Thanks to your work and sharing the resulting information on this problem I now know how to fix the electrical problems that have been vexing me for a couple of years.  I would have never guessed that the drivers were not making electrical contact with the rails. 

The Kato GS-4 is a great engine when it runs properly.  I have a fleet of them (13) and at this point know far more about disassembly and assembly of the GS-4 model than I ever wanted to know.  Am glad to have found a couple of people with good working knowledge about the problems associated with this engine. 

 

[peteski]

Thanks for your feedback Ken!  I'm glad that my research was helpful.

Thinking about this, it appears that only the locos which have painted rim experience this problem.  It is almost like Kato uses a different blackening process for those, possibly to make the paint adhere better to the metal.  But since it makes the wheels non-conductive I'm surprised that they are continuing to use this process (I made Kato USA aware of the problem with AFT).  Maybe they expect the blackening to wear away quickly once the loco is running?  I ran my for several hours and until I used a wire brush to clean off the blackening, the problem remained.

Sorry to hear about the blown decoders. Kato's power distribution design in this loco looks good on paper but doesn't always work in actual use.  Most likely the damage was due to the motor outputs shorting to the rail pickup (somewhere inside the model).  The problem will not occur in DC models since the motor leads and rail pickups are connected.

I agree that this is an excellent (and in some ways revolutionary) model, but it has its share of problems.

[leedabsme74]

Petesky, I have two of the Kato "4449" BNSF GS-4 models.  The drivers of both engines are coated with the non-conductive paint - tested as you suggested by insulating tender from rails.  One of the two also has destroyed two EM13 DCC modules  - inexplicable shorting.

Is this the same problem the original 4449 had at initial release of the Kato GS-4 many years ago?  Or is it a random issue with just the one unit you are reporting?