Multiple Unit Lash-up with Sound

[Mark W]

So I just finished a practically 'drop-in' install on a Kato F40PH using the ESU LokSound Select Micro and Soberton speaker.  I'm blown away how far sound has come in the last several years!  Now I gotta have more!
At the shows with Free-moNebraska, small crowds always gather whenever someone is switching the yard, so I gotta get sound in a switcher pronto, which leads to my question.

I have a pair of GP38s that are consisted and mostly assigned yard duty.  They're very rarely separated.  Do I put sound in one unit or do I put sound in both? 

Let's assume cost is not a factor and that there are no other limitations on getting the sound to work.  Would you consider it worth it or necessary to have two sound units always paired up, or would one sound unit be enough?

How about 4+ unit train?  Just one with sound, every other, lead & trail, or everything?

All opinions appreciated. 

[SP-Wolf]

I don't run too many sound units -- however, the ones I do run are: An ABA set of PA's -- both A units have sound. A pair of FP45's --- both have it. An E6A and B -- both have it. On the drawing board, I have an ABBA set of F7's -- only the A units will have it. So, I really don't know, which of your choices to pick.

Wolf

[ednadolski]

I currently do not have any Loksounds in N scale, but if running >1 of the same unit then there is a setting that you want to use to prevent the decoders from playing the prime mover sounds "in phase".   I've heard the phasing effect on some sound locos and find it a rather distracting.

Side note, I don't know why they need a setting, instead of just by default having every decoder randomly vary its playback speed by a small amount.  Proto locos all vary a little anyway.

Ed

Edit: this is also probably a good case to set the overall volume of each unit to a little less than you might otherwise expect.

[RBrodzinsky]

On my two ABA sets, I've put sound in both A units. My ABB set (WP F3s) I only put sound in the A. I am leaning towards sound in both units for a couple of AB E8/9 pairs, and again only the A units for an ABBA string and of F3s.

For anything where I may run the units independently, I am leaning towards sound in all. I chose the 50% selection in the poll.

[powersteamguy1790]

If I run four F-7 units (A-B-B-A), you only need sound in one unit using The ESU Lok-Sound Select Micro decoder. After the unit is set up. I usually turn the sound down 60 % in my 21'x12' train room. If you're running the consists at shows, leave the sound up at factory settings to get the ideal effect.

Stay cool and run steam.........   Bob

[hnipper]

Mark, as you could tell from the Omaha show fall 2015, there is a good bit of background noise which challenges our N-scale sound. I am seeing the same thing from our Omaha N-trak shows at Lauritzen and the Mid-America Center. At home is a different matter! PowerSteamGuy is right that there is a great deal more demand for sound volume at shows! I just installed sound in three B-units of an F3 ABBBA consist so we shall see how they do this June at the Ralston Arena. In two of the B-units we have a sound file from diesels with two prime movers, and in one of the B-units a sound file from a single prime mover. They sound great starting off in an irregular order!

I think sound is fine and really appreciate good sound installs!

Henry

[jdcolombo]

While I typically only have sound in one unit of a consist UNLESS the consist consists of engines with different prime movers (e.g., two GP9's and an RS11), I agree that in the show context, more is probably better.

BUT, if you install decoders in both locomotives with the same sound file, the "phasing" problem will be very noticeable unless you take steps to cure it.  Here's an explanation from Matt Hermann of ESU on how to fix this by adjusting the "sound speed" CV's for one of the locomotives:

"On my layout we randomly adjust the “Sound Speed” of the prime mover sound slot to get rid of phasing.
If the prime mover sound is on F8 you can adjust the following:
 
With CV32 to 1 (do this first)
CV261 is the minimum sound speed
This is the slowest it will play.
The range is 0-255. The default (normal sound speed) is 128.
 
CV262 is the maximum sound speed
This is the fastest it will play.
The ranges are the same as above.
 
If you slow these down or speed these up ever so slightly it will offset from other locos. A LITTLE GOES A LONG WAY. Though I suggest you experiment with it to see what it does, you will notice for the prime mover you can get some strange sounds if you go too far one way or the other!
 
BTW this can be done for all the sound slots. I even occasionally use it on the horns and bells. I can’t stress enough though that minor adjustments will give you the best results."

John C.
 

[Cajonpassfan]

So I just finished a practically 'drop-in' install on a Kato F40PH using the ESU LokSound Select Micro and Soberton speaker.  I'm blown away how far sound has come in the last several years!  Now I gotta have more!
At the shows with Free-moNebraska, small crowds always gather whenever someone is switching the yard, so I gotta get sound in a switcher pronto, which leads to my question.

I have a pair of GP38s that are consisted and mostly assigned yard duty.  They're very rarely separated.  Do I put sound in one unit or do I put sound in both? 

Let's assume cost is not a factor and that there are no other limitations on getting the sound to work.  Would you consider it worth it or necessary to have two sound units always paired up, or would one sound unit be enough?

How about 4+ unit train?  Just one with sound, every other, lead & trail, or everything?

All opinions appreciated.

Getting back to the OP's question, I have the definitive answer: it depends 
My personal take is that effective sound is very much a function of the setting, or venue. At public shows with all kinds of competing ambient and other noises (and other distractions like exploding volcanoes and circus music) volume is king, and whether it comes from one or more engines is not all that important.

In a more controlled setting like a club or especially a more intimate home layout, subtlety becomes much more important. I used to think a single unit in a diesel set would be adequate, but having two adds a dimension of depth akin to stereo music. I now aim for (at least) two units with sound in a set and enjoy the slightly off-synch sequences with a multitude of sounds going off and out of phase. I also have an ABA set of BLI Alcos with sound in each unit, and it is pretty awesome, but there are diminishing returns. So in answer to the OP, I'd say you need two sound decoders if running more than one locomotive, not necessarily more with more units. For a four unit lashup, two with sound should be adequate. I don't have any experience with "multiple brands" in single lashups (and I do plan to run Alcos and Erie-builts together) and I wonder whether mixing prime mover sounds in such close (N scale) proximity is effective, or just noise... perhaps John C. can chime in on the challenges associated with this question....?
Thanks,
Otto K.

[atsf3751]

When I consist locos I do it for the engines. My fleet contains sound and non-sound engines so sometimes all engines in a consist have sound and sometimes none have sound and all flavors in between. There is one exception to this.

I have several Intermountain ABBA consists of F3s and F7s which I use with my Santa Fe passenger trains. Each engine in the consist has the same number and they always run together. One nice thing about the Intermountain engines is that the A and B both have the same chassis which leaves room in the B for a sugar cube. Both B's in the consist have sound and the A's do not. This is not a problem because the sound equipped B's produce enough sound for all four engines.

[nscaler711]

Me personally, if you are just going to run a pair together, both should have sound, especially if they are from different builders. But if you are going to run more than three, by all means every other should have sound. It would be cheaper on the wallet, and easier on your sanity...
Granted, I only say should as it is my opinion, because thats what I planned on doing... and you know, if you like Sound in any scale as well...
Same point though, having different decoders in different locomotives may make consisting them difficult as well, so maybe all or nothing... 
Unless you are a DCC guru... then do whatever you want... I am definitely not a guru... i cant even consist two Kato C44-9s with the same decoders... its like one has an Atlas motor in it and the other is well a Kato... 

[robert3985]

I've pondered this for a while, and what I'm finding to make my ears happy (both set up at home and at shows) is in my lashups that are always coupled together, such as my Kato E-9 A-B-A COLA lashup, is to put sound in the A-units, and not in the B's.  I may add another E-9 B to this consist, and the sound will remain okay as it goes by my position, with the rear of the lashup not being quieter than the front.

Generally speaking, I put sound in all my A-units, and in none of my B-units.  This goes for F's, E's, PA's and FA/FB's.  It will also apply to my GP-9 B units when I get around to kitbashing them.

However, I have two lashups that operated out of Ogden daily in 1956 which were two GP-9's with an F3-B unit.  I'll put sound in all of 'em, as anything less would detract from the unique ugliness of this typical UP motive power lashup in the transition era!

So, the rule for me is to put sound in A-units because they can and often do run all by themselves.  I generally don't put sound in B-units because they almost always run with their respective A units...at least in my era and location.  I will put sound in a B-unit if it is to run with an engine/s that have different prime movers in the lashup.

For long passenger motive power, it's important to my ears to have it appear to have sound emanating from the entire lashup as it goes by.  As of now, all my UP diesel passenger trains have an A-B-A motive power arrangement with sound in the A's.  However, some future trains will have A-B-B or A-B-B-B power arrangements and once again, I'll put sound in the last B-unit on these trains, especially with long E and PA engines.

On short road-switcher lashups of three or more engines with the same prime movers, the front and back engines get sound...and any engine in the lashup that's running a different prime mover gets sound-ized, even if all three or five engines have sound.  Luckily from a money aspect, is that most engine lashups in my era were done with engines having similar prime movers, even the Geep/F3-B lashup.

Suits me, saves money and sounds great!

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[sp org div]

N scale is different to me than HO. It is important to have all units with sound in larger scales because your face is more in it. Seems with N I find myself feeling a perspective of being farther away in the scene....  In a noisy show atmosphere it is much less important to have sound out of every unit as compared to a quiter home layout environment. Thus every loco is not as important... unless they are of different prime mover sound files! I typically run the second unit as sound in a multi-unit consist (home layout) so as to reduce the awkwardness of the sound seeming to be only from the head end....  As installs become less intense with the arrival of newer decoder configurations, I look forward to the fleet including more and more sound units per lashup.
Jeff

[drgw0579]

Who needs sound decoders?  I run Concor U50's and PA1s.  They provide sound without the need for fancy electronics.

Well it is April 1.

Bill Kepner

[Mark W]

Thanks everyone!  I see a lot of new perspectives and tips I would have never considered here! 

I think the defining variable for me is that I will be running at shows with competitive background noise; so I'm going to error on the side of more units with sound. If it was just a home layout, I would go for the more economical approach. 

[milw156]

for an F unit lashup use an E8 soundfile as it has 2 EMD 567 engines per loco. if you have  an ABBA setup, 2 dual 567's gives you 4 diesel engines.Each starts up separately,  see

(Start upbegins about 3:00.)   in theory, you could  also use a DD40x for each pair of GP40's or SD 40's. An Alco and an FM sound really cool together!
Rick