MRC 2-6-0 with sound.

[jdcolombo]

My 2 cents:

I haven't tried MRC's latest generation of steam sound decoders, because their prior generation was so terrible that I tried one and said "never again."  I think, however, that Otto does have a point about everything sounding the same.  BUT . . . that's not necessarily the case with Zimo or (soon) ESU.  Each of these companies make programmable decoders that use sound files recorded from specific locomotives.  ESU just released a sound file specifically recorded from a Soo Line Mikado, down to the actual Soo Line whistle.  ESU is planning to release (soon) other steam files recorded from actual running steam locos.  Zimo similarly has a whole bunch of different sound files for different kinds of steam locomotives.   If you vary the sound files you use with your roster, then the "they all sound the same" issue is mitigated.  All my Berks pretty much sound the same, but they were all Berks designed to pretty much the same set of specs; the Berks as a class, however, sound very different from my 2-8-0 Consolidation or my 2-8-2 Mikados.

So I think the concern that if you use a single kind of decoder for your installations, they will all sound the same, is soon to disappear.   That means that other considerations should take precedence, such as the decoder's motor control, overall sound fidelity, and for steam, the accuracy with which you can set the chuff rate to match the actual driver rotation rate.

On this latter point, ESU wins for me over Soundtraxx (I have not tried a Zimo sound decoder with a steam file, so I can 't comment on it).  The Tsunami uses a single CV to set the chuff rate.  I've found that it is very difficult to get a chuff rate that is exactly in sync with driver rotation at "crack the throttle" speed (e.g., steps 1-3 on a 128-step scale) and then stays in sync at higher speeds (at least up to the point at which the drivers are turning so fast that you can't whether the chuffs are in sync or not).  ESU uses two different CV's for this: one you set at speed step 1, and a second that you set at about 1/4 throttle.  With this setup, you can get darn near perfect sync between driver rotation and chuffs at all speeds.  As I write this, I would say that ESU's steam sounds available on their "generic" steam sound files aren't as good as Soundtraxx's.   For example, I think Soundtraxx's "heavy steam" chuffs have more of the prototypical sharp "bark" that US super-power steam locos have; they just sound more realistic to me.  So if I were going on sound fidelity alone and buying today, Soundtraxx would win.  But that is about to change as ESU releases more custom-recorded stead files like the Soo Line Mike.  ESU also wins the motor control factor, although not by much: my most recent experience with Soundtraxx indicates that they have pretty much caught up on motor control.

As for Zimo, I just haven't tried them in a steam application, since most of their steam files are either for European prototypes, or are extra-cost files (as much as $20-30) recorded by and developed by independent programmers.  But overall, Zimo's decoders are excellent, so I expect that they would perform well on this front, too.

If I were going to buy a steam loco and wanted the absolute best sound available, I'd never buy a sound installation from the factory, because their speaker implementation is always poor.   You will do light-years better with rolling your own sound, using as large a speaker as you can with a custom enclosure, and marrying that to the best available sound reproduction and motor control.  For me, that means an 11x15 or 13x18mm speaker in a custom enclosure and an ESU decoder, but I wouldn't quibble with someone who had decided on Soundtraxx's Tsunami 2 or Zimo's MX648 or 649.  I certainly wouldn't pick MRC's decoders when these other options are available.

John C.

[peteski]

 ESU uses two different CV's for this: one you set at speed step 1, and a second that you set at about 1/4 throttle.  With this setup, you can get darn near perfect sync between driver rotation and chuffs at all speeds.  As I write this, I would say that ESU's steam sounds available on their "generic" steam sound files aren't as good as Soundtraxx's. 

Zimo uses a very similar "virtual-cam" chuff syncing method.
See http://www.zimo.at/web2010/documents/MX-KleineDecoder_E.pdf

[Chris333]

Trying to slowly read up on all of this.

The Zimo says it can detect dirty track and will move the locomotive if it stops on dirt. How does that work with no cap?

[Chris333]

Also since I plan to make a 3D tender frame with a etched brass tank wrapper I have the whole thing drawn out. Looks like the decoder and speaker will fit easy, but the Zimo SC68 cap won't fit. 

Is anyone using caps in N scale? What is the smallest cap I can use.

And why is like 90% of all the DCC stuff I find come from other countries? Is it new here?

[jdcolombo]

Also since I plan to make a 3D tender frame with a etched brass tank wrapper I have the whole thing drawn out. Looks like the decoder and speaker will fit easy, but the Zimo SC68 cap won't fit. 

Is anyone using caps in N scale? What is the smallest cap I can use.

And why is like 90% of all the DCC stuff I find come from other countries? Is it new here?

@Chris333

Use tantalum chip caps.  A 16v, 220uf tantalum chip cap is about 7mm wide, by 3mm high, by 4mm deep.  Because they are rectangles and so small, you can fit them nearly anywhere, and I've found that two of them wired in parallel is usually plenty to avoid sound dropouts (they won't help if you have fundamental problems with electrical pickup, but they will kill off momentary dropouts that occur even with clean track and clean wheels).   You can use 16v caps as long as you keep your track voltage somewhere south of 14v.  The caps are fed by the decoder's bridge rectifier.  Most bridge rectifiers drop 1.2v (although I think Peteski found that the ESU bridge drops only about .5v).  So if your track voltage is 14v, and the caps are being fed 13.5v, that's at least a 2.5v safety margin, which is almost 20%.  I've run my units on Digitrax systems set on the "HO" setting, which puts about 14.4v to the rails, without any issues.

If your track voltage is higher, if you don't know what your track voltage is, or if you run your engines on other layouts (e.g., a club layout) that has higher/unknown voltage, you may want to go with 20v, 150uf caps.  Tantalum caps explode (literally) when they fail, and it's not something you want to experience.  The 20v, 150uf caps are the same size as the 16v, 220uf caps, except that they are 1mm thicker (4mm instead of 3mm) and two wired in parallel gives you 300uf of capacitance, which also should be sufficient to kill off momentary sound loss.

Here's a photo of the caps I'm talking about:

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

You can get these caps from Digikey or Mouser.  Here's a link to the 16v version at Digikey:

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/avx-corporation/F931C227KNC/478-8257-1-ND/4005713

Here's the 20v version:

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/kemet/T491X157K020AT/399-4794-1-ND/1085513

They aren't cheap ($2 or so each, less in quantities of 10 or 25; I buy 50 at a time), but for our installations, they just work better than traditional can electrolytics.  They are so small that you could probably put one at each corner of the tender oriented vertically, wire them with 30-gauge magnet wire, and have FOUR caps in parallel if you wanted to do that (I've done it on the small Bachmann USRA tender).

John C.

[jdcolombo]

Oh, and as for your comment about the Europeans, DCC isn't new to the US.  I bought my first Digitrax Chief system in 1995, although I think that the Arnold S2 switcher was the first N-scale engine that you could get with a factory DCC decoder, and that was a few years earlier.

Yet, it IS true that the Europeans have generally been ahead of the US manufacturers when it comes to decoder technology.  Lenz, ESU, Zimo and CT Elektronik have all been at the cutting edge of decoder design for years, and generally have outperformed Digitrax, NCE and TCS on motor control and lighting effects, and the sound decoders from ESU and Zimo have generally been way ahead of US manufacturers as well.  Why this is, I don't know.  We certainly have plenty of talented electrical engineers and computer programmers here in the US, but the Europeans have seemed more eager to push the envelope on things.  I do think the US folks are catching up, though.  The Soundtraxx Tsunami 2's motor control is nearly as good as ESU's (Zimo still leads the pack, IMHO), and a couple of folks who installed Digitrax sound decoders in their Kato FEF's are very happy with them.  Right now, however, I stick with ESU LokSound Select Micros in everything, although I have reason to believe that Zimo is making a push to compete in the US sound market.

John C.

[peteski]

Trying to slowly read up on all of this.

The Zimo says it can detect dirty track and will move the locomotive if it stops on dirt. How does that work with no cap?

Could you point me to where you found this info - It will help me to be able to explain.  But the bottom line is that there is no magic. The decoder needs power (some sore of super-cap or other energy storage device) to be able to supply power to itself and to the motor in order to move the loco.

As far as DCC goes, Lenz and Marklin were instrumental in the early DCC development (and guess where they are both based?).  So Europeans were involved in it even before today's DCC standard was defined).  Here is a very good (and lengthy) article about the subject (DCC is very close to the bottom, but still well explained).

[Chris333]

I may have rethink all this. I was cool with paying $150 for a DCC system, but now I see you can't even unplug it without a $150 upgrade. And wireless is like $500. I just assumed they were all wireless 

[peteski]

I may have rethink all this. I was cool with paying $150 for a DCC system, but now I see you can't even unplug it without a $150 upgrade. And wireless is like $500. I just assumed they were all wireless 

What do you mean Chris?  You can get a complete DC system for around $150.  Not sure what you mean by unplugging.  Wireless throttles for any DCC system are big bucks. Unless you hook the DCC command station up to your PC, install JMRI and configure it for WiFi throttles. Then you can use any smart phone as a throttle.

[Chris333]

The NEC starter set is $150, but if you unplug the cord the train stops. If you want it to keep running you need another $150 booster.

No use having sound if I can't follow my train around the layout. My $80 Control Master 20 will at least keep trains running while I move the cord.

Just figured all the dcc stuff is handheld it must at least be "walkaround". I don't want to spend $500 just to make 2 or 3 locos have sound.

Glad I at least read up on it and didn't just order a system.

[peteski]

The NEC starter set is $150, but if you unplug the cord the train stops. If you want it to keep running you need another $150 booster.

No use having sound if I can't follow my train around the layout. My $80 Control Master 20 will at least keep trains running while I move the cord.

Just figured all the dcc stuff is handheld it must at least be "walkaround". I don't want to spend $500 just to make 2 or 3 locos have sound.

Glad I at least read up on it and didn't just order a system.

I haven't looked into this but you might be able to get by with just a $150 command station/booster box interfaced to a PC running JMRI. Then set up WifFi throttles and use your smart phone(s) as wireless throttle(s).

[robert3985]

The NEC starter set is $150, but if you unplug the cord the train stops. If you want it to keep running you need another $150 booster.

No use having sound if I can't follow my train around the layout. My $80 Control Master 20 will at least keep trains running while I move the cord.

Just figured all the dcc stuff is handheld it must at least be "walkaround". I don't want to spend $500 just to make 2 or 3 locos have sound.

Glad I at least read up on it and didn't just order a system.

I'm not sure what you read, but for "around" $500 you can buy the top-of-the-line Digitrax EVOD Duplex Radio/Infra-red 5A/8A starter set, which you can run either plugged in or wirelessly.  Either way, your locomotives will not stop when you "unplug", and you can run two trains simultaneously and independently with their individual throttle knobs. Engines that are just sitting and not addressed by your throttle still emit sounds, like real engines do when stopped.

This starter system will allow you to program without a programming track if you desire, have access to 30 functions, has a "playable" whistle/horn button and many more features since this is the Kenworth of DCC systems....which means it isn't like learning to drive a 1994 Honda with an automatic transmission...it takes some time to get to know how to use it.

If you're looking for a Honda, then NCE is probably the way to go.

For a bit less than 500 bucks, you could get the Digitrax Zephyr ZEPX Xtra starter set for about $170, add a Digitrax UR92 Duplex Transceiver Panel for about $121, and add a Digitrax UT4D Duplex Radio Utility Throttle for basic engine and sound control for around $107, and maybe a couple of UP5 Loconet Universal Interconnect Panels for $15 each to put around your layout to plug in with.  Soooo....for $398 you'd have wireless DCC control and full programming capability using your stationary Zephyr ZEPX Xtra command station.  I'd spring for the top-of-the-line EVOD starter set for $110 more if I wanted to go the Kenworth way.  Saving that 100 bucks on a lesser system isn't going to be worth it in the long run.

Another even cheaper walk-around (not radio) way to do it using Digitrax would be to get the Digitrax Zephyr ZEPX Xtra for $170, add the DT500 wired super throttle (which also has infra-red capability) for $145, and add basic UP5 Loconet Universal Interconnect Panels for $15 each where you want 'em.  That'd be $345 including two UP5 panels, and YES, the trains keep moving when you unplug.  If you wanted only basic control for walk-around, substitute a Digitrax UT4 Utility Throttle for $62...which brings the price down to a mere $262 for walk-around control, but with a basic hand-held throttle with limited capabilities, but will still give you access to 12 light/sound functions, engine selection, speed matching and speed/direction control.  The Zephyr ZEPX Xtra stationary command station gives you full programming capability.

I can feel Peteski's vein on the side of his head starting to pulse, but the only drawback to Digitrax is the learning curve, which is steeper than NCE, and Loconet really makes hooking up DCC accessories foolproof.

The Zephyr is a more advanced basic starter set than other manufacturers' allowing full 30 functions to be accessed, upgrading to wireless or infra-red by simply adding components via Loconet, and full reading/writing for programming decoders as well as "Blast" mode for sound decoders...meaning more voltage,  and it allows running one DC non-DCC train using address 00 (just don't park the engine(s) on the layout...remove when not running) and many other advanced features.

The whole using JMRI, a computer, and old smartphones as throttles thing is too much work for too little capability.  I don't know what the full capability of using old smartphones as throttles is, but I when I ask the local run-your-trains-using-smartphones guy at the shows if he can run two trains simultaneously with his setup, he always blanks out and says...."uuuuuuuh...no.."  My interest stops right there.

I really don't care what system you get, but just don't believe the bug-eyed anti-Digitrax rantings.  It didn't take my son and I long to figure out all the features of my Digitrax system, and now it comes naturally to us.  Truthfully, now that I'm used to it, I much prefer the Digitrax Super Throttle design over the NCE hammer-headed, giant TV controller design.  But it's just MY preference...and a lot of other model railroaders too who put up with its steep learning curve and who like Digitrax's superior features and capabilities...on even the cheapest Zephyr ZEPX Xtra starter system.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[peteski]

I can feel Peteski's vein on the side of his head starting to pulse, but the only drawback to Digitrax is the learning curve, which is steeper than NCE, and Loconet really makes hooking up DCC accessories foolproof.

Don't worry Bob, I'm ok.  I never questioned the fact that Digitrax is a much more advanced and more capable than many oher DCC systems (like NCE).  But a good majority of modelers don't need or ever use all those bells and whistles.  I also know first had how non-intuitive and cumbersome it is to operate.  Not just running trains but its tuning, configuration and upkeep.  It also has a terrible human interface and horrendous manuals.   Yes, you can drink the Digitrax Cool-Aid and convince yourself that it is the best thing since sliced bread and it is the ideal system for you, but the reality is that there are much easier to operate systems systems out there with just enough bells and whistles to make most modelers happy. Especially the ones who just want to run model trains, not learn a new quirky Digitrax  language. Spinning rubber chickens over your head and animal sacrifices are optional.

Just in case you didn't get my drift earlier, let me repeat: In my personal experience Digitrax is probably the most cumbersome system to learn and use and unless someone has a specific need for one or more its super-advanced features, I would not recommend it to anyone. Got it? 

As far as the full-featured handheld throttles go, sure NCE is like a good size remote control (which we all use and are used to), while Digitrax throttle (to quote Daniel Leavitt) has a look and feel of a 40-year-old calculator. 

[robert3985]

Don't worry Bob, I'm ok.  I never questioned the fact that Digitrax is a much more advanced and more capable than many oher DCC systems (like NCE).  But a good majority of modelers don't need or ever use all those bells and whistles.  I also know first had how non-intuitive and cumbersome it is to operate.  Not just running trains but its tuning, configuration and upkeep.  It also has a terrible human interface and horrendous manuals.   Yes, you can drink the Digitrax Cool-Aid and convince yourself that it is the best thing since sliced bread and it is the ideal system for you, but the reality is that there are much easier to operate systems systems out there with just enough bells and whistles to make most modelers happy. Especially the ones who just want to run model trains, not learn a new quirky Digitrax  language. Spinning rubber chickens over your head and animal sacrifices are optional.

Just in case you didn't get my drift earlier, let me repeat: In my personal experience Digitrax is probably the most cumbersome system to learn and use and unless someone has a specific need for one or more its super-advanced features, I would not recommend it to anyone. Got it? 

As far as the full-featured handheld throttles go, sure NCE is like a good size remote control (which we all use and are used to), while Digitrax throttle (to quote Daniel Leavitt) has a look and feel of a 40-year-old calculator. 

Peter, LOL!!  I wasn't worried about your health...I was just predicting the future!   

Oh, I got your "drift", but I think it is always more of a riptide since you're blatantly opining, not dropping little hints!

LOL!!..in fact, if it wasn't that way, I would ask myself where peteski went???  You've become part of the flavor of TRW and I expect spirited discussion and blatant opining.

Here's the FACT...the fact is, that Digitrax definitely has a steeper learning curve than other DCC systems, but, and this is a big "BUT"...after you learn it, it ceases to be...hmmm, let's see "...non-intuitive and cumbersome..."

As I've pointed out many times before, my experience with it is that it's what I'm used to now, and operating it is effortless second-nature.  When I pick up an NCE throttle, IT feels "...non-intuitive and cumbersome..." to me because it's not what I'm used to.

Another FACT is that Digitrax's manuals suck.  However Mr. Google loves Digitrax and there is a ready answer to every question you can ask online... in my experience.  In my region, the vast majority of DCC users use Digitrax, so I can also call one of them if I have a question.  These two last points are also FACTS.

Once you get used to it, Digitrax is just as easy to operate as any other system, even for "most" model railroaders, and having the extra Digitrax bells and whistles is good to have in case you ever want or need them.

As for its looks...my era is 1947 through 1956, so even looking like a 40 year old calculator is too modern for keeping my theme pure, but it's the best that's available!! The retro-look is a big plus for me.   Just because it's more "modern" looking doesn't mean it looks better.  Beauty is obviously a matter of taste, and I like Digitrax design philosophy much more than NCE or any other manufacturer.

Yup, I've got plenty of model railroad compatriots who use NCE, and others who use Lenz, others using Rail Lynx, and others who are deep into WiFi and old smartphones.  We are still friends, but when they want to run a non-DCC engine on a layout when at a show, they bring it to me, because it's a paperweight on an NCE powered layout. When they're having problems with their wireless DCC systems picking up stray signals and losing control of their trains, my layout is running totally unimpeded...we're happy, they're pulling their hair out.

Learning Digitrax was well worth it in my book, rubber chickens included.  I'm not the one drinking Cool-aid because my choice to use Digitrax was derived from the needs of my layout, and hours of personal running experience with other systems. Digitrax can do, and will do things that NCE won't...even if it was harder getting started.  I just went into it with my eyes wide open and now...it's smooth sailing!

As I always say, I don't give a rat's rump what DCC system others choose and they all have their pluses and minuses, but Digitrax is the Kenworth and worth consideration, even if it's hard to learn and has crap manuals.

...and I do enjoy the repartee!   

Cheerio!
Bob "Drinkin' the Digitrax Kool-Aid" Gilmore....yummm

[peteski]

Once you get used to it, Digitrax is just as easy to operate as any other system, even for "most" model railroaders, and having the extra Digitrax bells and whistles is good to have in case you ever want or need them.

This is exactly what I'm talking about - Digitrax's "getting used to it" is way too lengthy of a process . Most model railroaders don't want to keep going back to a crappy manual (or Google) to try to figure out what to do. It is frustrating.  They rather play with trains. So a system which is more intuitive and which communicates with the user in more-or-less plain English (instead of gibberish and acronyms), will be much better choice for that average model railroader.  Yes, when they buy any new DCC system they will have to spend some time read the manual and set it up, but then they will be off and running in much faster time than driving a 15-speed Peterbilt (see what I did there) which needs double clothing and has airbrakes.

To me the ideal DCC system would have extremely short learning curve and totally intuitive to use. As close to a DC throttle as possible.  Digitrax is the most farther removed from my ideal as it can be.

You can say all you want in defense of Digitrax but I wont change my mind or stop speaking my mind.    Future DCC users need to be warned that Digitrax is the rough-riding truck of DCC with a manual transmission. If they want a smooth running Mercedes, they need to look elsewhere.   

We could go about this forever.  But that might not be what TRW members want to see.