N Scale Sound and future purchasing decisions

[basementcalling]

Lots of good points gentlemen. I up voted a lot. I have a ton of respect for John and others who are pioneering this aspect of the hobby, but I am still a sound fuddy duddy.

I resent the sound movement. I didn't mind DCC because manufacturers didn't try cramming it down my thoat. They quickly went DCC ready with frames and drop in decoder boards so the modeler could choose. DCC upgraded performance too, while sound degrades pulling power from my experience. That impact comes even in sound ready locos as the frames are likely to all be standard, but I havent checked to see. How much? I dunno, but losing mass in an N scale engine is not a good thing. It also makes electrical contact more problematic with less weight to keep wheels on rails, though keep alive circuitry seems a perfect solution - and not just because it prevents the toy like sounds from cutting out.

I despise being forced to buy a feature I will not use, however, so companies like BLI, and increasingly Bachmann, lose out on sales when they offer sound as standard equipment. I'd love 3 or 4 AC6000s, but not at $180  pop street price. Maybe I'LL buy 1 or 2, and that's a very weak maybe. My hobby dollars are precious and right now I'm not ready to use them on a feature that add so much to the cost of a purchase.

I admit the sound in the scale trains gas turbines was impressive when I saw it at Kleins. They sounded realistic, but it wasn't truly prototypical. The real thing would rattle your fillings and leave you screaming to talk to someone 5 feet away. Prototypical sound would get apartment dwellers kicked out of their units.    We focus so much on prototypically correct details, but sound seems to overlook the same level of fidelity with engine based speakers. Some guys won't buy a foobie offering, but a lot of sound is foobie. Maybe we don't know it because you can inspect photos for details, but using video for sound policing isn't as common. 

I'd rather see sound go the route Lance Mindheim discussed on his blog with the sound come from the throttle via headphones. It's more isolating the way the sounds of a passing trains surround you and overwhelm other aspects of our senses, if you want to crank the volume to 11 and damage your hearing.  At least the neighbors won't know. I'd think there is better chance of proto sounds coming from a speaker in a hand held throttle than in a tiny speaker in a frame.  But this approach won't make as much money as speakers on decoders, so I doubt it catches on with manufacturers.

Yea, it's 75% about the money for me. Sound is just plain too expensive right now for my wallet.

[peteski]

I admit the sound in the scale trains gas turbines was impressive when I saw it at Kleins. They sounded realistic, but it wasn't truly prototypical. The real thing would rattle your fillings and leave you screaming to talk to someone 5 feet away. Prototypical sound would get apartment dwellers kicked out of their units.    We focus so much on prototypically correct details, but sound seems to overlook the same level of fidelity with engine based speakers. Some guys won't buy a foobie offering, but a lot of sound is foobie. Maybe we don't know it because you can inspect photos for details, but using video for sound policing isn't as common. 

I'd rather see sound go the route Lance Mindheim discussed on his blog with the sound come from the throttle via headphones. It's more isolating the way the sounds of a passing trains surround you and overwhelm other aspects of our senses, if you want to crank the volume to 11 and damage your hearing.  At least the neighbors won't know. I'd think there is better chance of proto sounds coming from a speaker in a hand held throttle than in a tiny speaker in a frame.  But this approach won't make as much money as speakers on decoders, so I doubt it catches on with manufacturers.

Sounds like (pun intended) that you don't subscribe to the theory that gut-busting bass and rattling-your-fillings turbine sounds emanating from a 4"long model would actually be unrealistic?

Funny thing is, as you said, we try to accurately scale down to 1:160 scale most of minute details on our models but you still want the 1:1 volume sound radiating from that model.  Just saying . . .

If I wanted to experience those loud locomotive noises I would also want do have a much fuller visual experience. Something like Virtual Reality goggles along with HiFi headphones over my ears. That way the volume and fidelity of the sound would be "in scale" with the visual experience.  I'm not trying to say that you views are wrong - I'm just voicing my view on this and a counterpoint to your view.

[basementcalling]

Sounds like (pun intended) that you don't subscribe to the theory that gut-busting bass and rattling-your-fillings turbine sounds emanating from a 4"long model would actually be unrealistic?

Funny thing is, as you said, we try to accurately scale down to 1:160 scale most of minute details on our models but you still want the 1:1 volume sound radiating from that model.  Just saying . . .

If I wanted to experience those loud locomotive noises I would also want do have a much fuller visual experience. Something like Virtual Reality goggles along with HiFi headphones over my ears. That way the volume and fidelity of the sound would be "in scale" with the visual experience.  I'm not trying to say that you views are wrong - I'm just voicing my view on this and a counterpoint to your view.

Does sound that's scaled down still sound like the real thing? Does sound scale at all?  What volumne do you play your Zeppelin or Floyd? 

Details scaled down still look real. To my ear, scaled down sound sounds toylike. A model crafted to n scale fidelity still replicates the vision I get railfanning. Sound scaled down, not so much..

My experiences operating on a steam HO layout with sound left me feeling it was a hollow experience.

[peteski]

Does sound that's scaled down still sound like the real thing? Does sound scale at all?  What volumne do you play your Zeppelin or Floyd? 

Details scaled down still look real. To my ear, scaled down sound sounds toylike. A model crafted to n scale fidelity still replicates the vision I get railfanning. Sound scaled down, not so much..

My experiences operating on a steam HO layout with sound left me feeling it was a hollow experience.

I usually listen to the Floyd and Zeppelin at fairly low level (but I do crank up the volume from time to time, or when listening to certain songs when I know it won't disturb anybody).  But I also don't have a 1:160 scale concert stage with Zeppelin or Floyd figures on it in front of me (if you catch my drift).  There is no visual part present when listening to the music like there is when running trains on a layout.  If I was watching a concert video on a Jumbotron screen then I would most likely like it loud too.

[Kentuckian]

Here's a photo of my latest sound install in a non-dcc-ready Atlas GP7 frame.  I milled the center channel, milled down the front shelf for the speaker, and milled down the rear shelf for the decoder (an ESU LokSound Select Micro, with the plastic wrap removed).  Power pickup is via some .015 phosphor-bronze strips that I've folded over three times until they fit VERY snugly under the "fingers" at the front of the chassis.  I cut these strips so that they would be just a tad wider than the "fingers" so a tiny bit sticks out from the side.  The red and black wires are then soldered to the phosphor-bronze strip where it sticks out.  The various other parts are labeled.  The circuit board with the resistors is sitting on top of the front part of the decoder, held down by thin double-sided tape.  The speaker is in the front of the chassis, and the front LED is glued to the front of the speaker enclosure.  It took four years, but I think I've finally got a layout that works well.

John C.

John,

Thanks so much for your work in this area. I do have a few questions; I hope you don't mind. Do you mill the frame with the two halves bolted together? If so, do you remove the drivetrain first? If you have the measurements of how much you remove, would you share that information? And maybe a wiring diagram? I know, I don't ask for much.

[Blazeman]

What about the speaker?  Well, the decoder manufacturers could supply an 8x12mm speaker in a suitable enclosure along with their "GP7 board."  Or maybe not - maybe they leave that to folks like Tony's Train Exchange or Streamlined Backshop.  In these days of 3D printing, getting a printed enclosure that pretty precisely fits that Atlas cutout is a no brainer.   You the modeler remove the plug, run two short wires to the stainless-steel pickups from the speaker to the stainless steel pickups on the motor. This wouldn't be a "drop in" job for the modeler, but it should be no more difficult than installing a two-piece TCS GP or CN-type decoder is now in a non-dcc ready frame. 
The real problem I see is that some segment of the modeling population doesn't want to undertake an after-market installation like this.  They want it all to come from the factory so that they can put the engine on their layout and just have it work.  OK - the "sound ready" idea won't satisfy these folks.  Maybe there are enough of them that there simply isn't a market for the "sound ready" idea.  But I suspect the opposite - I think there probably would be a bigger market for "sound ready" than actual factory-installed sound.   If I had a spare couple of million dollars, I'd try it myself .  I've always been willing to run expensive experiments!

John C.

Johnny C: I think you spelled out the challenges and options for solving. Without a doubt, reconfiguring will add a bit more to the price for "sound-ready"  chasses/frames, but it's still better than the cost of sound-equipped models which produce sticker shock amongst the masses.

I think it's called evolution. Follows how things have gone with other aspects that have been debated here (track, DCC, couplers, Ntrak, prototype fidelity, wheel size) that make life interesting.

[MK]

Yes for both:
RS3: https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=31953.0
GP7: https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=31186.0  (this isn't a full tutorial - just photos of the install).

All of my sound installation threads are collected at the end of the first message in this thread:

https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=31981.0

Reading that first message in that thread might be helpful - for example, I no longer drill holes in a shell for sound egress.

Note that I now also routinely add two 16v, 220uf tantalum chip caps as "keep alive" in all my installations.  I do this by soldering the positive ends together, then connecting the far ends with a short piece of wire.  The caps go in the center channel that either I mill out (in an older frame) or which already exists in the DCC-ready frames.  Here's a photo of the caps soldered together with wires:

(Attachment Link)

I've also gone from using 1/8-watt round carbon resistors for LED dropping resistors to using a very small piece of single-sided 1/32" PC board with SMT 1K resistors.  You can see a photo of this tiny board in the thread on converting a Kato PA-1.  If I get time tomorrow, I'll take a photo of my most recent GP7 installation (in an older non-dcc-ready chassis that I milled a channel into) and post it.

John C.

John, THANK YOU!  I'm going to have to go through all your threads with a nice hot cup of coffee!  I'm a thinkerer like you and really appreciate all the documentation you did.  I have not delved into sound yet but I would like to try one out.  After installing a decoder into N scale Thomas, I thought I could conquer anything due to Thomas' lack of space.  (BTW, I did the write up and TCS posted it on their website -this was many years ago.)  The kids love it at train shows!

I was going to ask you about your milling but your subsequent post further down tells me that you have a mini milling machine.  Do you think it's possible to do all this milling by hand with a Dremel?  I'm anal about neatness and precision but a mini milling machine just for sound installation is out of the question at this time.  I realize that doing it by hand will not be as neat or precise as using a milling machine but I just want it to be "acceptable" and not turn it into a hack job. 

[jdcolombo]

John,

Thanks so much for your work in this area. I do have a few questions; I hope you don't mind. Do you mill the frame with the two halves bolted together? If so, do you remove the drivetrain first? If you have the measurements of how much you remove, would you share that information? And maybe a wiring diagram? I know, I don't ask for much.

1.  Yes.  I remove the drivetrain, then screw the frame back together.  I use two pieces of 1/8" masonite set above the fuel tank area (one on each side of the frame) to help clamp the  frame in my milling vise.  The fuel tank sits on the bottom of the vise; whatever end of the frame I'm milling sticks out from the side.  Since the frame is higher than the top of the vise, I can mill the center channel with the frame clamped in the vise.  The frame will flex a tiny bit in the center as you clamp it in the vise, which I don't worry about much - we're talking about 1/32" clearance, and I've never had one permanently bend.  If you were worried about that, you could fashion some sort of spacer to keep it from happening.  I'm really glad I ended up with the Proxxon mini-mill, because it's like it was designed precisely for doing small jobs like this.  Just don't expect it to do much with the bearing faces on your 350 cu.in. Chevy crankshaft.

2.  I'll try to get more specific measurements the next time I do a milling job, but roughly it's like this (for a non-dcc-ready) frame.  First, I mill down the front shelf of the frame for the speaker (this is for high-hood units, like the GP7, where I put the speaker in the front).  I mill off this shelf until it is the same height as the phosphor bronze "spring" strip on one side of the frame than holds the worm bearings in place.  I mill this area back toward the center of the frame until it is flat with the "fingers" that hold the lightboard.  This should give you about 7mm of height from the top of the shelf to the top of the lightboard "finger" which is as high as anything can get and still get the shell on.  The Keystone Customs 8x12 speaker enclosure is exactly 6mm high, so it works perfectly in this space.  It is made for the Soberton 8x12mm speaker, available from Digikey.  In this kind of installation, I'd install the Soberton with the solder pads facing up (e.g., the front of the speaker will face down into the enclosure).  I used one of my left-over stash of Star Micronics 8x12's (no longer made), but the process is exactly the same with the Soberton.

Then I mill a center channel, leaving about 2mm of frame on each side of the channel.  That channel is milled starting about 1/4" behind the "fingers" and then all the way back until you hit the rear shelf.

Finally, I mill off enough of the rear shelf so that the decoder sits flat behind the center part of the frame and no higher than the top of the center part of the frame.

This all sounds like a lot, but when I'm done, the frame isn't all that much different from a modern DCC-ready frame, and most of these older frames were heavier to begin with.  So what I end up with is still about as heavy as a DCC-ready frame (and I've been known to stuff a cab with tungsten putty just to add a bit of weight back in).

As for a wiring diagram, well, I don't think I can really do that any way other than words and photos.  The decoder goes on the rear shelf, with the main set of wires facing down.  I remove the plastic wrap (because with the wrap, the decoder is simply too wide to fit inside the shell; without the wrap, I've found that it usually fits - very tightly, and there may be a tiny, tiny "bow" in the shell where it sits if you look hard for it, but it beats trying to sand down the inside of the shell).  In order to make sure I don't short out the decoder, I cover the rear shelf of the frame with a layer of kapton tape, and then use a strip of kapton tape to hold down the decoder - you can see this in the photo I posted in an earlier message.

Before I put the decoder on the assembled frame, I put the drive train back in one frame half, and then measure how long the gray and orange wires need to be to solder to the motor brush tabs.  I cut those wires, strip and tin about 1mm of the ends, then remove the motor and solder them to the proper motor brush tabs (gray to the top, orange to the bottom).  I cover the motor brush tabs with a small piece of electrical tape to ensure no shorts - you could also use kapton tape, or put kapton tape on the frame to do the same thing.  No magic here - you just want to make absolutely sure the motor brush and solder joint cannot contact the frame in any way, shape or form.

Now the motor goes back in the frame half, with the decoder hanging out in back of it.  The other half of the frame now goes on, and I screw it together (worry about the trucks later).  Next I tape the rear of the frame as described above and tape the decoder on.   Next, I put my keep-alive capacitor "sandwich" in the center channel, and glue it to one side of the frame with a drop of gel CA, with the solder pads facing up (see previous photo).  Next, I fashion my phosphor-bronze pickup strips that I shove under the front frame "fingers" and then cut the black and red wires to length, strip and tin about 1/16" from each, and solder to the phosphor-bronze strips.

Next, I glue the speaker (with the 603 LED already glued to the front of the enclosure) to one side of the frame with a large drop of gel CA.  The wires for the LED run under the speaker enclosure in the slit between frame halves (this is 34-gauge magnet wire, so you don't need much space to make it work). 

Next, tin the speaker contacts.  Then cut the brown wires to length, strip about 1/8" and tin, and solder to the speaker leads.

Next, cut the blue wire so that it is long enough to reach the center of the capacitor sandwich (where the two positive ends are soldered together).  Strip and tin about 1/16", then solder to that center area.  Cut the positive magnet wire lead from the front LED long enough to reach this same center solder pad of the cap sandwich, tin about 1/16" of the end (you do this by letting about 1/16" of the wire sit in a blob of solder on the tip of your soldering iron), and solder to the same area where the blue wire is.

Cut the wire from the negative end of the cap "sandwich" (see the prior photo of my cap sandwich, showing a green wire coming off one end of the sandwich) long enough to reach the negative keep alive pad on the LokSound (this pad is at the very edge of the board at the front, on the "back" side of the board directly behind the blue wire pad).  Strip and tin about 1mm of the end of this wire, and tin the pad with solder.  Solder the wire to the pad.

Now I add the rear LED, by simply taping its leads to the top of the decoder, on the flat chip that is at the back of the decoder (see prior photo, where I've used a piece of 1/4" yellow masking tape to do this).  Cut the positive wire so that it reaches the center of the capacitor sandwich, and solder it there (you'll now have three wires soldered there: the blue wire from the decoder, and the two positive magnet wires from each LED).

Now I cut the white and yellow wires to about 3/4" and solder each to one end of my circuit board which has two separate "circuits" with 1K, 1/8-watt SMD resistors.  I put a small piece of thin double-sided tape on the front of the decoder, press the circuit board down on this, cut each of the negative LED magnet wires long enough to reach their respective ends of this circuit board and solder.  Done.

Before I do anything else, I do a continuity check to make sure that there isn't a short across the frame halves.  Then I loosen the frame screws just a bit, put in the trucks, tighten the screws, and put the fuel tank back on.  Then I put the whole thing on a piece of Unitrack connected to my LokProgrammer and program the decoder with the appropriate sound file and whatever other CV's I want.  This is also a good way to test your wiring - if the programmer won't recognize the decoder, you have a problem.  If it does recognize the decoder and programs it, all your wiring is good, and since you've done this test at very low voltage/amperage, if you've messed up the wiring, you haven't blown up the decoder.  If you have a problem, recheck all your solder connections (particularly the red/black pickup wire connections, which are usually the source of any problems).

When I'm done programming, I take the chassis to my layout, and test it all.  If everything (lights, sound, motor, etc.) works, I put the shell on and call it a success.

John C.

[jdcolombo]

John, THANK YOU!  I'm going to have to go through all your threads with a nice hot cup of coffee!  I'm a thinkerer like you and really appreciate all the documentation you did.  I have not delved into sound yet but I would like to try one out.  After installing a decoder into N scale Thomas, I thought I could conquer anything due to Thomas' lack of space.  (BTW, I did the write up and TCS posted it on their website -this was many years ago.)  The kids love it at train shows!

I was going to ask you about your milling but your subsequent post further down tells me that you have a mini milling machine.  Do you think it's possible to do all this milling by hand with a Dremel?  I'm anal about neatness and precision but a mini milling machine just for sound installation is out of the question at this time.  I realize that doing it by hand will not be as neat or precise as using a milling machine but I just want it to be "acceptable" and not turn it into a hack job. 

I did all this for years using a Dremel and a heavy-duty cutoff wheel, along with different sizes and shapes of carbide cutters.  The end result is functional, if not pretty, and takes a LOT longer than my milling machine, but this is what I did for three years before getting the Proxxon.  Just go slow, take breaks, and keep a bottle of bourbon handy   For medicinal purposes only, mind you.

John C.

[mark.hinds]

In case any manufacturer reads this, FWIW I will avoid buying any N-scale locomotive with sound.  From normal viewing distance, it seems "out of scale" to me, especially with multiple trains on the layout. 

MH

[jdcolombo]

In case any manufacturer reads this, FWIW I will avoid buying any N-scale locomotive with sound.  From normal viewing distance, it seems "out of scale" to me, especially with multiple trains on the layout. 

MH

Hi Mark.

Well, you are an example of why I think "Sound Ready" is the way manufacturers ought to go.  You get your non-sound loco.  I get something that I can convert to sound in about a half hour.  Sounds like a win for both of us.

John C.

[JMaurer1]

John C: Your earlier post about making engines 'sound ready' is exactly what I was talking about. Make them sound ready so we can CHOOSE rather or not we want sound added. They can still sell the locomotive with sound already installed (if they want to), but don't force us who don't want sound (or the expense) to have it. I choose not to have it (but please put some added weight in the vacant speaker area for 'sound ready' locomotives that can be removed if sound is added).

...still waiting for the cheap $5 decoders that I was promised (along with the flying cars).

[jdcolombo]

This thread has drifted far, far away from its original intent, but to close out my answer to some questions, here are three photos of a non-dcc-ready Atlas GP9 frame before milling (areas marked in black are roughly what I intend to mill away) and after milling.  I really got the right side of the "channel" a bit thin and the left side a bit thick.  Ideally, each side should end up about 1.5mm wide.  Also, make sure not to get too close to the motor mount hole at the rear, or you will break the frame at that point.

John C.

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[mmagliaro]

Hi Mark.

Well, you are an example of why I think "Sound Ready" is the way manufacturers ought to go.  You get your non-sound loco.  I get something that I can convert to sound in about a half hour.  Sounds like a win for both of us.

John C.

I agree with this completely!  It sounds to me (ha!) like sound fans do not care much for the pre-installed sound decoders and speakers anyway, so why not just offer a "sound-ready" version to make us all happy?

My cynical mind tells me it is because the manufacturers can jack up the price very disproportionately with the cost of adding the sound, that's why.  They upcharge $50 or more for locos with sound built in, for something that costs them a fraction of that to put in.   It's like the soft drinks in restaurants.  They may sell you a steak dinner for $30 that costs them $15 to make, but they sell you a soda for $3 that cost them pennies.  There's a big profit margin in pre-installed sound.

[C855B]

... My cynical mind tells me it is because the manufacturers can jack up the price very disproportionately with the cost of adding the sound, that's why. ... There's a big profit margin in pre-installed sound.

Bingo. This is BLI's and Bachmann's gambit.