About those shortie passenger cars coming from Atlas

[thomasjmdavis]

This is a follow on to the threads on the Springfield show. Hoping that someone out there can answer a few questions about the prototypes and measurements for the passenger cars announced by Atlas based on CNW "shortie" prototypes.  I've seen a couple of diagrams, but without dimensions.  And I live 1000 miles from Springfield, MA, so did not get the opportunity to put a ruler to the models.  I note that the windows on the Atlas look closer to prototype photos than the old Bachmann model (where the windows are very narrow)- so I an wondering if the dimensions might not be a bit different on the Atlas models.  My main concerns are with the RPO and baggage versions, since for purposes of most roads, the "60 foot" dimension would be an inside dimension- the cargo or sorting space available, and the outside length a couple feet longer.  While the "coupled length" of a Bachmann is nominally 65' (they were sold at one time as 65; I get a measurement of 60' on the body less the cast on diaphragms/door frames.

So, if anyone can answer any of the following on either the prototype or the model, would be much appreciated....

1) Inside measurements of the prototype cars (incl coach, combine, baggage and RPO), and inside dimensions less vestibules for the coach and combine. (I am primarily a Santa Fe modeler- where a "70' chair car" is actually close to 78' overall, because SF didn't count vestibules)

2) Any measurements you could supply for the production samples shown at the Springfield show.  (Of course, I don't know if Atlas let anyone touch them- I've been to shows where some manufacturers kept everything under glass while others let you take stuff apart).  Especially the spacing between doors and door dimensions.

3) I've  heard that Soo had some coaches that were similar in size and configuration.  Are there others? 

4) Same question would apply to the baggage.  Many roads had 60' cars, but most appear to have either different size doors, or doors that are farther apart (many 60' baggage were rebuilt RPOs, and doors are spaced to use some of the RPO framing).

5) Does anyone have insight into what roadnames will be released early on (their O scale version seems to have been released in MANY schemes over the years, regardless of whether the prototype road had anything remotely similar)?

6) Is there a timeframe for release?

7) Any comments on fit, finish, rivet size, etc?

Beyond idle curiosity, one of the projects I have been working on is a model of CEI RPO 107, which was one of their rebuilds in the 1950s and in this case was so extensive, it has the appearance of a streamlined car, but was built on the frame of a 40 year old baggage car.  With the Atlas, announcement, I have held up this project (thinking I might be able to utilize the Atlas underframe and possibly trucks) along with a couple of projects to cut down MT baggage cars, hoping that the coming Atlas baggage car might be a better starting point.  And looking at the Atlas baggage, I am also thinking I may try to lengthen a couple of them to model L&N 70' cars- which had matched sized, symmetrical doors.

Tom D

[jmlaboda]

1) Inside measurements of the prototype cars (incl coach, combine, baggage and RPO), and inside dimensions less vestibules for the coach and combine. (I am primarily a Santa Fe modeler- where a "70' chair car" is actually close to 78' overall, because SF didn't count vestibules)

The coach and baggage - coach should measure 63' 3" in overall length while having 55' inside length between vestibules.  The baggage and mail cars should measure between 63' and 64' with an interior length of 60'.

3) I've  heard that Soo had some coaches that were similar in size and configuration.  Are there others?

The Soo had similar coaches but they were a good bit different from the CNW cars.  Among the differences was that the cars had "gothic" upper sash windows that were later plated over to create a rather deep letterboard above the larger windows (the Chicago Great Western also had this type of coach in use).

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/soo979.jpg
http://rr-fallenflags.org/acfx/cgw-ch237asw.jpg

6) Is there a timeframe for release?

Would bet later this year.

Beyond idle curiosity, one of the projects I have been working on is a model of CEI RPO 107, which was one of their rebuilds in the 1950s and in this case was so extensive, it has the appearance of a streamlined car, but was built on the frame of a 40 year old baggage car.  With the Atlas, announcement, I have held up this project (thinking I might be able to utilize the Atlas underframe and possibly trucks) along with a couple of projects to cut down MT baggage cars, hoping that the coming Atlas baggage car might be a better starting point.  And looking at the Atlas baggage, I am also thinking I may try to lengthen a couple of them to model L&N 70' cars- which had matched sized, symmetrical doors.

C&EI 107 should have had an underframe like the Atlas baggage and mail cars though you will need to fit a streamline carbody to the underframe.  I like your idea of stretching the baggage to a 70' length to match L&N cars... may have to look at doing something similar for my own modeling purposes though I may try to mod the door openings as well... will have to give this some thought.  What with creating some baggage - mail cars out of the baggage and mail car models (likely 70' cars though some will be 15' mail apartment cars for branchline trains) I will have some spare body parts so lengthening the Atlas baggage will definitely be something to look at.  Just have no idea how quickly I will be attempting such projects, my freelanced model of the Great Northern heat car #5 (may yet look at using some Atlas parts to do this car) and business car models have currently stalled in part because of work on my websites, the Passenger Car Photo Index and N-scale Varnish User's Guide.  Hopefully at least before much longer fodder for these kitbashings can start to be collected...

[thomasjmdavis]

Thanks for the reply Jerry. You confirmed my best guess on the prototype interior dimension, so I will hope the models are built to that size (rather than shortened to 60' outside or over coupler). The body for my version of CEI 107 is from an old Con Cor car (the one with the 5 RPO windows and short baggage section at one end) that I had in a junk box.  A better starting point would probably be the Kato version (the windows are correct, for both the CEI car and the original GN prototype) from their early smooth side sets.  Essentially, with the Con Cor body, just needed to cut away the baggage door end, and fill in the upper part of the windows. Biggest hold up is decals- the set from the CEIHS only includes long letterboards, and the RPOs and many baggage used closer letter spacing to fit the shorter cars- so I am left with either making decals or going letter by letter.  In any case, both the CC and Kato cars can be cut down to produce a variety of streamline or rebuilt RPOs and Baggage-mail of 60 or 70 foot dimensions- and leftover RPO windows and baggage doors are always useful.

[amato1969]

Lehigh Valley operated Pullman "shorty" coaches and baggage cars alongside newer streamlined coaches.

I'll have to dig up some references and see how these models compare.  Ideally I can pitch the old B-mann cars from my stash...

  Frank

[thomasjmdavis]

Frank,

Not sure if this will help, but as it happens, the CEI Diagram Book (available on DVD from the CEIHS) shows that CEI purchased several (6 if my info is complete) coaches  from LV prior to WW II, # 862, 866, 867, 868, 873, 874.  These became CEI 300-302 (later 405-407) and 402-404.  The CEI diagram book shows them as 60' over end sills and 68'4" over diaphragms.  CEI also purchased DTI 38, which per the diagram was 54'6" over end sills, and 64'6 over diaphragms.  The window arrangements of both the LV and DTI cars are somewhat different than the CNW car prototype of the Atlas model.

CEI also purchased six LV 60' baggage cars- 750, 751, 755, 757, 758 and 761.  These are shown as 60'2" ID, 60' 9"over end sills, and 64'8" over diaphragms- very similar to the CNW prototype baggage car.  The major discrepancy that I can see is that the doors on the LV/CEI cars are spaced 24'5.5" apart, and the CNW are clearly closer together.

Please note, I have rounded most dimensions to the nearest inch. 

Tom D

[PGE_Modeller]

Lehigh Valley operated Pullman "shorty" coaches and baggage cars alongside newer streamlined coaches.

I'll have to dig up some references and see how these models compare.  Ideally I can pitch the old B-mann cars from my stash...

  Frank

My interest in the Atlas cars stems from the fact that the Pacific Great Eastern acquired three ex-Lehigh Valley coaches and an ex- LV baggage car in 1947.  However, "Lehigh Valley Railroad Passenger Cars", by M. Mickey & D. Warfel, (Railroad Avenue Enterprises, Inc., Flanders, N.J., 1980) shows the 800 & 900-series LV coaches to be 59'-4" inside; 60'-0" over end sills; 67'-10" over pulling faces of couplers; and 68'-4" over buffers.  They have 19 windows rather than the 18 on the Atlas models.  Baggage cars 725 - 744 and 1200 - 1224 are shown as 60'-0" inside; 60'-8" over end sills, 63'-9" over pulling faces of couplers;  and 64'-0" over buffers. They have two 5 window doors, each 5'-6" wide with 24'-6" between them (30'-0" c-c).

Cheers,

[jmlaboda]

My interest in the Atlas cars stems from the fact that the Pacific Great Eastern acquired three ex-Lehigh Valley coaches and an ex- LV baggage car in 1947.

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/lv899.jpg
http://images.techno-science.ca/searchpf.php?id=15483&lang=en
http://images.techno-science.ca/searchpf.php?id=230307&lang=en
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3492857
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/lv1222.jpg

[PGE_Modeller]

Those are the cars, Jerry!   Baggage car LV 1202 became PGE Baggage Car 707; coaches LV 933 & 968 became, respectively, PGE coaches 610 & 611, and coach LV 969 was converted to become PGE Dining Car 653.  In HO scale, Bethlehem Car Works has kits for the coaches and dining car.  When I contacted them a number of years ago about possibly producing the etched sides in N-scale, their reply was that they had "no intention of ever doing anything in N-scale".

Cheers,

[jmlaboda]

When I contacted them a number of years ago about possibly producing the etched sides in N-scale, their reply was that they had "no intention of ever doing anything in N-scale".

They never intend to do detail properly either... have you seen their sides?  Instead of raised areas such as the beltrail and splice plates they simply have outlines...  Hate to say it but I would rather have etched layers of detail instead of simply on solid piece.