Author Topic: Cotton Belt Heavyweights in Daylight  (Read 2146 times)

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Shipsure

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Cotton Belt Heavyweights in Daylight
« on: January 30, 2017, 02:06:42 PM »
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Anyone have the 411 on heavyweights that operated on the SSW in Daylight colors.  We've gotten some requests and I am not finding much other than descriptions of them.   Long term research project.

Thanks

Joe
 

jmlaboda

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Re: Cotton Belt Heavyweights in Daylight
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2017, 03:29:59 PM »
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Have you tried the "Cotton Belt" list at Yahoo! Groups?  They have official blueprints in the Files section of the group but to view them you have to join the list...

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/CottonBelt/info

Check your email... I sent you one.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2017, 04:18:53 PM by jmlaboda »

johnb

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Re: Cotton Belt Heavyweights in Daylight
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2017, 12:35:37 AM »
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Sent you a link

Point353

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Re: Cotton Belt Heavyweights in Daylight
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2017, 12:41:37 AM »
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There seem to be remarkably few photos of Cotton Belt passenger trains/cars posted online.

This one [ https://swrails.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/ssw-318-dallas-jct-mt-pleasant-7-54-edit.jpg ] shows a Alco RS leading several heavyweight mail and baggage cars followed by what appears to be a Pullman/Osgood-Bradley lightweight car.

I don't have the book, but the illustration on the cover of the Cotton Belt Color Pictorial shows a train with a similar consist of heavyweight head-end cars and lightweight passenger cars, this time behind an Alco PA:
http://www.papabens.com/fourwayswest/CottonBeltColorPictorial.jpg

MRLX1020

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Re: Cotton Belt Heavyweights in Daylight
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2017, 01:32:43 AM »
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The Cotton Belt's primary passenger operation was the Morning Star - a pair of Dallas-St.Louis overnight trains via Tyler, Pine Bluff and Scott City, MO. 

Let me see if the vintage St.Lours in Color book has anything useful.  I recall seeing photos of FP-7's and PA's in Daylight colors at the TRRA engine facility near Union Station.

MRLX1020

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Re: Cotton Belt Heavyweights in Daylight
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2017, 09:43:18 AM »
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Screen shot from Western Rail Images page of an SSW Baggage RPO in daylight scheme at the TRRA coach yards in St.Louis.

No number.  Texas Special pool sleeper in the foreground is cool, too... [ Guests cannot view attachments ]

brokemoto

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Re: Cotton Belt Heavyweights in Daylight
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2017, 10:20:05 AM »
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I did not know that SSW RS-3s were equipped for passenger work.  I am aware of the two PAs, one FP-7 and one GP-7 that carried the Daylight scheme and were equipped for passenger work.   The FP-7 worked out its last miles on the SF Peninsula commutes.  By the late 1960s, it had SP lettering, but I forget if they painted it Black Widow or Bloody Nose.  I do remember that it was pretty beat up by then.  I rode behind it more than a few times to Bellarmine.

Point353

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Re: Cotton Belt Heavyweights in Daylight
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2017, 11:02:13 AM »
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I did not know that SSW RS-3s were equipped for passenger work.
The following link provides some info on how the various SSW RS-3 units were equipped:
http://espee.railfan.net/sswrs-03.html

jmlaboda

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Re: Cotton Belt Heavyweights in Daylight
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2017, 12:53:19 PM »
+1
Quote
...but I forget if they painted it Black Widow or Bloody Nose.

Never wore Black Widow or Bloody Nose on the SSW.  It wore the unique Cotton Belt Daylight scheme with a silver roof, just as other units wore.

Quote
Screen shot from Western Rail Images page of an SSW Baggage RPO in daylight scheme at the TRRA coach yards in St.Louis.

In 1954 the Cotton Belt had seven cars in the 77 - 88 series.  A SSW blueprint for there Daylight passenger cars shows at least one car quite similar in window placement and door size (on the baggage end) to that of the MT Burlington baggage - mail, clerestory roof and all.

gelboy45

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Re: Cotton Belt Heavyweights in Daylight
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2017, 01:12:28 PM »
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I did not know that SSW RS-3s were equipped for passenger work.  I am aware of the two PAs, one FP-7 and one GP-7 that carried the Daylight scheme and were equipped for passenger work.   The FP-7 worked out its last miles on the SF Peninsula commutes.  By the late 1960s, it had SP lettering, but I forget if they painted it Black Widow or Bloody Nose.  I do remember that it was pretty beat up by then.  I rode behind it more than a few times to Bellarmine.

Mmm, that Texas Special car looks good too!

Gerry

brokemoto

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Re: Cotton Belt Heavyweights in Daylight
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2017, 11:07:56 AM »
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Never wore Black Widow or Bloody Nose on the SSW.  It wore the unique Cotton Belt Daylight scheme with a silver roof, just as other units wore.

I am aware of the Daylight scheme that it had on the SSW.  I never saw the thing on the SSW, though.   The only place that ever I saw it was on the SP on the SF Peninsula.  It did not have the Daylight scheme when I saw it and rode behind it on the SP.   I forget which scheme that it did have, but I do recall that it was not a Daylight scheme.  There was power on the SF Peninsula that still had the Black Widow scheme even as late as 1970, although most SP and SSW power there had the Bloody Nose by that time.

There was one other cab unit that did work the Peninsula commutes that still had its Daylight colors, but the paint was in pretty bad shape by the late 1960s.  That was the only one that I can remember seeing in Daylight colors that late.  At some point, it disappeared, but I forget when.  I do not recall seeing it after 1969, but it might have vanished before then.

Thank you for the link to the SSW RS-3s.  I was not aware that there were passenger RS-3s there.   SSW did run some power that SP never had, but that was due to SP's taking SSW's best steam to California.  By the time that the diesels were available, the SSW needed new power as mos of what SP had left there was beat up and beyond worn out.

 I do not recall ever seeing an RS-3's working SF Peninsula commutes.   The SSW's FP-7 did go to the Peninsula to work the commutes.  The PAs might have, as well, but I can not remember if the few PAs that I saw on the commuter trains were SSW or SP.   The FP-7 did have SP lettering when I saw it and rode behind it in the late 1960s and in 1970 (I forget if it lasted into 1971). 

If the SSW PAs did go to the peninsula, SP might have had the lettering changed.  I do recall seeing SSW lettered units on freight trains, but I can not recall seeing SSW lettered units on passenger trains. 

I recall seeing RSD-4s on the Peninsula, but SP had those.  In fact, I remember seeing an RSD-4 fired off in Santa Clara Yards.  The smoke, racket and flame made quite the fireworks show.  The thing shuddered quite a bit, as well.

C855B

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Re: Cotton Belt Heavyweights in Daylight
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2017, 12:11:43 PM »
+1
... the paint was in pretty bad shape by the late 1960s. ...

That surprises me.

Quote
... If the SSW PAs did go to the peninsula, SP might have had the lettering changed. I do recall seeing SSW lettered units on freight trains, but I can not recall seeing SSW lettered units on passenger trains. ...

This I would expect. SP top brass rode the trains to and from the office from their tony homes in Hillsborough and Atherton, and is the primary reason the commuter trains lasted as long as they did under SP control. Cotton Belt and T&NO were red-headed stepchildren kept around for corporate and regulatory convenience, and it simply wouldn't do to be reminded of this every day (or twice every day).

SP proposed, in the oil-crisis mid-'70s, to eliminate the trains and replace them with van pools ostensibly provided by the railroad or RR-government partnerships. This met with enough internal opposition for this John Signor drawing to hang in at least one manager's office at #1 Market St.:

...mike

http://www.gibboncozadandwestern.com

We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents. We just don't tell anybody. -Bob Ross

jagged ben

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Re: Cotton Belt Heavyweights in Daylight
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2017, 11:47:16 PM »
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SP proposed, in the oil-crisis mid-'70s, to eliminate the trains and replace them with van pools ostensibly provided by the railroad or RR-government partnerships. This met with enough internal opposition for this John Signor drawing to hang in at least one manager's office at #1 Market St.:
...

LOL.  That image is now saved in my 'SP Commuters" folder.   :D

Gotta love the plow.

C855B

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Re: Cotton Belt Heavyweights in Daylight
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2017, 12:33:26 AM »
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Yeah, it's a hoot. Looking at it again makes me recall the flak we gave John about the "happy passengers". The drawing was a parody of one of the publicity photos in the proposal brochure, John obviously adding the railroad appliances. We swear (he always denied) the gentleman in the plaid pants was a self-portrait. The guy on the left sure looks like actor Phil Silvers and the driver/engineer slightly resembles me at the time, but I think both of those were coincidence.
...mike

http://www.gibboncozadandwestern.com

We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents. We just don't tell anybody. -Bob Ross

jmlaboda

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Re: Cotton Belt Heavyweights in Daylight
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2017, 02:33:33 AM »
+1
Quote
The FP-7 worked out its last miles on the SF Peninsula commutes.  By the late 1960s, it had SP lettering, but I forget if they painted it Black Widow or Bloody Nose.  I do remember that it was pretty beat up by then.

According to photos taken in '66 and '71 the unit looked rather good overall...

http://rrpicturearchives.net/locoPicture.aspx?id=116575

Leased to SP in 1960 and assigned the number 6462 while the unit slowly was adapted to SP practices (signal in door) and occasionally was assigned to The Coast Daylight, as the '71 shot shows.