Author Topic: Possible kitbash for MTL PS-1?  (Read 7072 times)

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cjm413

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Possible kitbash for MTL PS-1?
« on: September 10, 2016, 08:04:10 PM »
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https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.nprha.org/Modeling/NP%252036000%2520Series%2520PS-1%2520Rebuilt%252040-ft%2520Boxcars.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjm0cnt_oXPAhUFxSYKHQHZCU4QFggbMAA&usg=AFQjCNFfznOaIBolo44iRUdTkryvSxsvqw&sig2=sOJ0ln9HMR5Buhp8p4vasA

This article admittedly covers a HO model of NP's rebuilt PS-1's, but the extra height on the MTL model may be useful for simulating the rebuilt sills:

http://www.model160.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=212&sid=b8ea5e00b60ff21255caba2e298f890c

Any problems with the lower door track would be negated by the new 10' door, and any problems with the MTL roof would be negated by replacing it with a non-overhanging diagonal panel roof.

Given these were rebuilt from early PS-1's (1947) the small rectangles on top of the ends will need to be removed to backdate the MTL model accordingly.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 08:11:24 PM by cjm413 »

wazzou

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Re: Possible kitbash for MTL PS-1?
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2016, 08:17:29 PM »
+1
I've built one.  I intended to cast it in resin so it isn't painted and may not be completely finished.
I'll try and post a photo to this thread at some point.
I know @hegstad1 has built one also.
Bryan

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Missaberoad

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Re: Possible kitbash for MTL PS-1?
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2016, 09:05:50 PM »
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Interesting, I've been pondering what to do with my micro-trains PS-1s.
Besides a handfull Im keeping simply because I like the paint scheme, the Atlas model has rendered them surplus.
Ryan in Alberta

bbussey

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Re: Possible kitbash for MTL PS-1?
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2016, 10:56:48 PM »
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I don't think so. The prototype photos in the article appear to be better suited to the Atlas model.
Bryan Busséy
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wazzou

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Re: Possible kitbash for MTL PS-1?
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2016, 12:09:15 AM »
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I don't think so. The prototype photos in the article appear to be better suited to the Atlas model.


The only Atlas model available when I built mine wasn't suitable for anything.
Bryan

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nkalanaga

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Re: Possible kitbash for MTL PS-1?
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2016, 02:27:53 AM »
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"The only Atlas model available when I built mine wasn't suitable for anything."

No, the early Atlas PS-1, now the Trainman model, really wasn't that great.  By comparison, the Kadee version, in spite of its flaws, was a vast improvement.
N Kalanaga
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cjm413

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Re: Possible kitbash for MTL PS-1?
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2016, 01:05:13 PM »
+1
I don't think so. The prototype photos in the article appear to be better suited to the Atlas model.

True, but the objective I had in mind was finding an alternative to selling off any surplus MTL PS-1's, possibly any surplus MTL FMC 5077's that may be a good source for the new 10' sliding doors...

bbussey

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Re: Possible kitbash for MTL PS-1?
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2016, 02:24:52 PM »
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The only Atlas model available when I built mine wasn't suitable for anything.

No, the early Atlas PS-1, now the Trainman model, really wasn't that great.  By comparison, the Kadee version, in spite of its flaws, was a vast improvement.

True, the Atlas Trainman PS-1 isn't a workable model.  But the Atlas Master PS-1 has correct dimensions and is far superior to the Kadee/MTL model.

... [T]he objective I had in mind was finding an alternative to selling off any surplus MTL PS-1's, possibly any surplus MTL FMC 5077's that may be a good source for the new 10' sliding doors...

Yeah, I just can't see it.  Both the MTL PS-1 product line and the FMC product line are too far removed from the prototype for me to even consider holding onto them.  I've unloaded all of my FMCs and most of my PS-1s.  Unfortunately, I collected the PS-1s since 1974, so it has taken far longer to unload those than it did the FMCs.  I collected the FMCs also from when they first appeared, but not nearly as many as the PS-1s.  And at this point, other manufacturers with accurate 5077s and 5283s and 5247s have released most of the schemes that MTL has done.
Bryan Busséy
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wazzou

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Re: Possible kitbash for MTL PS-1?
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2016, 02:52:07 PM »
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The other thing that hasn't been noted is that the prototype as well as the HO model done by Chris Frissell utilizes a diagonal panel roof. 
The model I made has the MT roof cutout and replaced with an Intermountain diagonal panel roof.
Bryan

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cjm413

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Re: Possible kitbash for MTL PS-1?
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2016, 05:30:18 PM »
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 Both the MTL PS-1 product line and the FMC product line are too far removed from the prototype for me to even consider holding onto them.

That's the potential benefit of finding a rebuilt car as a potential kitbash of the MTL PS-1.  The FMC 5077 really doesn't have much use aside from the 10' sliding doors.

Roof - neither model has the non-overhanging diagonal panel roof on the rebuilt NP cars.   Off the top of my head, I don't recall if the Atlas model has a removable roof to save some time and effort.

Ends - as far as I know, neither Atlas nor MTL have ends that wouldn't need to be backdated for a 1947-built PS-1.  Atlas ends would have the advantage of being properly dimensioned in addition to better detail.

Sides - neither offer 10' sliding doors or reinforced side sills. MTL sides are too tall, but this can be mitigated as demonstrated on the Model160 post, and may also provide a shortcut for modeling the reinforced side sills.  MTL lower door track issue is a non-issue with the new 10' doors.

Underframe - Atlas solves the problems of jacked-up underframes and truck-mounted couplers.

Cost - if you already have the MTL car, it's already paid for.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2016, 05:37:00 PM by cjm413 »

bbussey

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Re: Possible kitbash for MTL PS-1?
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2016, 06:20:54 PM »
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Okay, but the MTL PS-1 is too tall in the body, well beyond a 10'6" interior height, so how is it appropriate for any kitbash of this type?  The height of the 10-foot-wide FMC doors is right, but the PS-1 body is unsalvageable if you are trying to recreate a prototypical model.

Also, the 10' doors are available from MTL as separate parts, so there's no reason to sacrifice the FMC models.  Better to sell them intact.
Bryan Busséy
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Missaberoad

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Re: Possible kitbash for MTL PS-1?
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2016, 07:31:06 PM »
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I have thought about and pondered this alot, and the more I think about it the more I agree with Bryan. If you want the most accurate model possible sell the MTL cars and start with an Atlas PS-1. While it was years ahead of its time in 1972 the industry (including MTL) has surpassed it. 

But for the sake of this thread lets set aside the fact that the modern Atlas PS-1 is a better starting point then the MTL car for any model based off a PS-1.
and keep the original premise that we are looking for a use for the MTL car, here's a few Ideas I've been throwing around in my head:

Rebuilt wood chip boxcars owned by CP & BAR. By removing the roof, door, door tracks and modifying the height of the car, we can conceal or removes many of the issues with the MTL car.
These cars are likely different enough to not look out of place next to an Atlas PS-1.   

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cp/cp269941jpa.jpg

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bar/bar3371jpa.jpg

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1008188

And looking a little deeper into @cjm413 's original idea of a rebuilt boxcar I can think of at least a few candidates that you could make a decent representation of...
(obviously not perfect, remember we're looking for a use for the MTL car in this exercise)
Lehigh Valley Evans rebuild
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/lv/lv65117alb.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/lv/lv65430bkg.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/lv/lv65467alg.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/lv/lv65470wba.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/lv/lv65487akg.jpg (interesting patch on this one)

Rock Island Evans rebuild
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/ri/rock57946.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/ri/ri57900.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/ri/rock57735akg.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/ri/ri57266akg.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/ri/ri57141.jpg

Erie Lackawanna
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/el70000jpa.jpg


« Last Edit: September 11, 2016, 07:32:40 PM by Missaberoad »
Ryan in Alberta

cjm413

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Re: Possible kitbash for MTL PS-1?
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2016, 07:42:00 PM »
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Okay, but the MTL PS-1 is too tall in the body, well beyond a 10'6" interior height, so how is it appropriate for any kitbash of this type?  The height of the 10-foot-wide FMC doors is right, but the PS-1 body is unsalvageable if you are trying to recreate a prototypical model.

The sill modifications do reduce the height of the MTL car per the pictures on the Model160 thread.

The end result is still a bit tall when compared to the properly dimensioned Atlas model, but in comparison to all of the other compromises that are par for the course in N scale, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

cjm413

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Re: Possible kitbash for MTL PS-1?
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2016, 07:52:05 PM »
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I have thought about and pondered this alot, and the more I think about it the more I agree with Bryan. If you want the most accurate model possible sell the MTL cars and start with an Atlas PS-1. While it was years ahead of its time in 1972 the industry (including MTL) has surpassed it. 

But for the sake of this thread lets set aside the fact that the modern Atlas PS-1 is a better starting point then the MTL car for any model based off a PS-1.
and keep the original premise that we are looking for a use for the MTL car, here's a few Ideas I've been throwing around in my head:

Rebuilt wood chip boxcars owned by CP & BAR. By removing the roof, door, door tracks and modifying the height of the car, we can conceal or removes many of the issues with the MTL car.
These cars are likely different enough to not look out of place next to an Atlas PS-1.   

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cp/cp269941jpa.jpg

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bar/bar3371jpa.jpg

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1008188

And looking a little deeper into @cjm413 's original idea of a rebuilt boxcar I can think of at least a few candidates that you could make a decent representation of...
(obviously not perfect, remember we're looking for a use for the MTL car in this exercise)
Lehigh Valley Evans rebuild
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/lv/lv65117alb.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/lv/lv65430bkg.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/lv/lv65467alg.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/lv/lv65470wba.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/lv/lv65487akg.jpg (interesting patch on this one)

Rock Island Evans rebuild
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/ri/rock57946.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/ri/ri57900.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/ri/rock57735akg.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/ri/ri57266akg.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/ri/ri57141.jpg

Erie Lackawanna
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/el70000jpa.jpg

If you want the most accurate model possible, sell all of your N scale PS-1's and buy the Kadee HO PS-1:

http://www.kadee.com/ca/40ps1/jpg/4001l.jpg

Missaberoad

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Re: Possible kitbash for MTL PS-1?
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2016, 08:25:30 PM »
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If you want the most accurate model possible, sell all of your N scale PS-1's and buy the Kadee HO PS-1:

http://www.kadee.com/ca/40ps1/jpg/4001l.jpg

Well within reason ;) we wouldn't want to do anything foolish like switch to HO!  :D :D

In all seriousness, with a few compromises due to scale I would go so far as to say the Atlas car is on that level...
Ryan in Alberta