Questions about lack of wheel conductivity and metals

[peteski]

I'm new at posting to this board and so please bear with me.

... and have now settled for liquid cleaning followed by the light use of  4B  graphite applied with a stick or pencil. This idea was passed on to me by folks operating a large HO scale club in my southwestern Ontario region and so it was given a try on my medium sized layout built in 1:160 using codes 55 and 40 rail. Graphite is quite conductive as a 4B stick set across the rails will quickly prove. My graphite items were purchased at Michaels. The 4B has enough clay in the mix  to act as a binder for the graphite (6B  may have a little too much 'clay gum' and 'smear' I suspect). This 4B mix will not fall off both contact surfaces, wheel and rail, and this graphite application has significantly  improved my experience with electrical operating reliability while reducing  the need to clean rail as often of dust, tarnish etc.

Graphite is conductive but it is also used as a dry lubricant. Have you noticed that using graphite decreases the adhesion of the loco's wheels to the track and thus reducing their pulling ability?

[casoken]

Thanks for the question.Graphite is a dry lubricant but without a clay binder. There is not an apparent problem, ie.no worrisome wheel slip under an average 20 car load and single 4 axle diesel or one  8 driver traction tired steamer (metal wheels/NMRA car weight). However, there has been no data based drawbar test to provide a better answer. I do run dcc and so contact is critical but on relatively easy level track with 15 inch radii min.on main "S" curves. The C&O/NYC prototype represented once operated through here on part of the ancient and someewaht flat lake bed under much of southern Michigan and Indiana.

[mmagliaro]

I'm new at posting to this board and so please bear with me. Thanks. This is a fascinating discussion re conductivity of electricity from  track to wheel on whatever locomotive power we are working with, whether artfully scratch built  or purchased ready to go. My thoughts re the fine conversationexamiing the mechanical and electrical construction involved lean me toward the  problem possibly residing mostly in the quality of the electrical aspect of rail /wheel contact that weight added does help.  My guess is that discussions about  track cleaning alone could produce a book with considerable heft to it. Like many, I have tried a variety of cleaners and non- destructive  friction cleaning devices/materials (OK, sometimes that rule was ignored!) and have now settled for liquid cleaning followed by the light use of  4B  graphite applied with a stick or pencil. This idea was passed on to me by folks operating a large HO scale club in my southwestern Ontario region and so it was given a try on my medium sized layout built in 1:160 using codes 55 and 40 rail. Graphite is quite conductive as a 4B stick set across the rails will quickly prove. My graphite items were purchased at Michaels. The 4B has enough clay in the mix  to act as a binder for the graphite (6B  may have a little too much 'clay gum' and 'smear' I suspect). This 4B mix will not fall off both contact surfaces, wheel and rail, and this graphite application has significantly  improved my experience with electrical operating reliability while reducing  the need to clean rail as often of dust, tarnish etc.

This is an interesting idea, but I have some questions.
How do you handle cleaning the track after applying the graphite?  I would think that any wiping, whether with liquids or mild abrasives, would remove the graphite easily.  Do you reapply it every time you clean?

What about graphite accumulating on the wheels of the engines and rolling stock?  Yes, it is conductive, but it's not as conductive as clean brass or nickel.

How long have you been running trains on an N Scale layout treated with graphite like this?  I ask because I'm wondering about long-term effects.  For example, maybe the graphite mixes with moisture and dirt after a long time and starts making some crud that is hard to clean. 

Believe me, I'm very intrigued by your idea of using graphite, but I'd like to know more about its behavior.

[robert3985]

Although these conversations are interesting, and I always read everything that Max and Peteski post, in my N-scale world and on both layout and portable modules and layout, track cleaning and conductivity have never been a problem in my nearly 40 years in the hobby.

Here's what I do.  (1) I lay my track to an exact center line generated by my model railroad CAD program...(2) All mainline curves have spiral easements, (3) Every piece of rail has a feeder somewhere near the middle of it and I (4) attempt to use good track laying practices so my long engines and passenger cars will traverse various combinations of turnouts and curves with aplomb and good looks.

In the past quarter century, I have used both ME (or old Rail Craft) C55 and C40 flex track, and I also hand-lay every turnout on both layout and modules, as well as all my branchline trackage in C40.  Rails are all whatever NS alloy ME uses, and my climate is dry desert, but at a high alpine level, with lots of snow in the Winter and long, hot & dry Summers.  Layout room is climate-controlled with refrigerated AC (along with the rest of the house) so excessive humidity is not a factor.

After laying the track and testing it until it runs PERFECTLY (I am a harsh taskmaster), I paint it, weather it and initially buff the paint off the railheads with a soft abrasive Bright Boy pad.  When I go to shows and transport my sectional/modular layout, I buff the railheads at the start of each operational day...once.  Trains stop only if not put on the track properly, or the operator runs a switch.  I don't have dirty track problems...period.  Minute scratches put into the railheads by years of cleaning with my soft Bright Boys don't cause electrical pickup problems, so I don't see any benefit to scraping, oiling, graphiting, or polishing my railheads.

One other thing.  My turnouts are built to a "tight" NMRA standard, which necessitates wheelsets on cars and engines which are exactly gauged properly.  This means that motive power on my layout and modules do not run until they have been gauged. 

Whatever I'm doing, it has lead to me and others operating on my layout/modules not spending much time at all either thinking about how to get trains to run more smoothly and reliably, or polishing, oiling or scraping my track.

I'm happy this gives me more time to build models, modules and post at TRW.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[tehachapifan]

I believe there is still a wildcard factor with regards to who has conductivity/track cleaning issues and who doesn't, and that is what is the prevailing climate in your area and where the layout is located (garage, house, etc.). Being in the Pacific Northwest, relatively close to the coast and with a layout in the garage, I for one am constantly challenged with these issues.

...that said, I will admit I have far too few feeders for a fairly large layout. I don't typically have complete loss of power problems due to track connectivity, but I do wonder if far too few feeders could (now don't laugh) somehow contribute to an increased rate of oxidation.

[nkalanaga]

Smoking, especially in the train room, or having a wood-burning stove will also dirty the track very quickly. 

[casoken]

Sorry for the delay in replying Max and thank you for your interest. Electrical contact appears as a general question in this thread and yes, the questionable benefit of artist's graphite in aid of this conductivity is intriquing and the science somewhat of a mystery. We know that our equipment has a tiny footprint and that capacitors are still on average too large for our sound installations. We know too that nickel silver alloy is not as good a conductor as pure copper and that N/S rail does contain an amount of copper but likely no silver. Copper was once used extensively in HO track prior to the 1960's when it was cheap. Apparently, both the N/S alloy and copper form non conductive patinas. Perhaps the graphite/clay combo blocks or slows down this oxidation or tarnish? Yes it does leave a black pencil like film on the track, but this is unseen until brushed with a finger and cleaning easily removes it. Two CMX cleaning tank cars,one dry , one wet are used to clean track here with abrasive tools confined to  small troublesome spots often at track switches. The graphite is applied sparingly at scattered points after cleaning and trains spread it about.The experiment with artists' graphite is at the end of its second year  and has reduced cleaning to an average of every 4 months (prior to operating sessions for sure) and so freed up time from this chore for more fun stuff.

[casoken]

This is an interesting idea, but I have some questions.
How do you handle cleaning the track after applying the graphite?  I would think that any wiping, whether with liquids or mild abrasives, would remove the graphite easily.  Do you reapply it every time you clean?

What about graphite accumulating on the wheels of the engines and rolling stock?  Yes, it is conductive, but it's not as conductive as clean brass or nickel.

How long have you been running trains on an N Scale layout treated with graphite like this?  I ask because I'm wondering about long-term effects.  For example, maybe the graphite mixes with moisture and dirt after a long time and starts making some crud that is hard to clean. 

Believe me, I'm very intrigued by your idea of using graphite, but I'd like to know more about its behavior.

Oops! This answer was not included in the earlier reponse to the questions quoted above. To date, additional wheel crud has not been an apparent problem.It is certainly a concern for me to keep an eye on as folks who have tried clipper or tranny oils or even Goo Gone with its sticky residue have experienced and would know.