Help with CP Horse car

[Missaberoad]

Also, where was this photo taken? 1800 lasted in that paint scheme to at least 1954 so the era is likely 1949-1954.
Is it a CP/B&M pool train?

[thomasjmdavis]

There were replacement frames (also used sometimes in new construction) made about 1910 that have posts and tie rods similar to a wood frame car (essentially a copy of the frame design, but in steel) that predates the more common fishbelly frame.  These were used under a lot of composite cars, and also used to give longer lives to wood cars.  But often hard to tell at any distance whether the frame was replaced or not without looking under the car.

[thomasjmdavis]

The origin of the photo was a search I did on the Trains site.  I was surprised it popped up since I don't have a current subscription.

Says it is the Alouette in Dec 1949, at Woodsville, NH

http://ctr.trains.com/galleries/archive/cp-gallery  (you may need to browse though the gallery of photos- but enjoy- several great pics)

[nickelplate759]

Here is something with the right number of doors, but darned if I can spot a car number...

That looks a lot like the Alouette, but I don't see any B&M cars in the consist.     Anyone have a lead on modeling the combine (2nd car)?

George

[Angus Shops]

The "Tracks" article is not much help. It discusses a series of 47' cars of basically freight car design with an arch roof, end ladders and arch bar trucks (although the cars were equipped with steam and air lines for passenger train service (with arch bar trucks?)). The CP Historical Association website has detailed drawings of these cars

CP had lots of experience with steel reinforced cars; a bunch of their wood 60' baggage/express cars received steel under frames while keeping the outer truss rods. These cars also received additional steel reinforcement on either side of the end doors and across the roof line. These cars lasted well into the diesel age and so it's possible the horse car shown would have received similar treatment.

Geoff

[Angus Shops]

A couple more notes: I checker the 1954 ORER and noted that wood cars reinforced with steel under frames are noted as such in the ORER; there is no such note for the 'wood' horse cars. Hmmmm?

On CP 'combines' were "baggage smokers" and listed as such in ORER. The seating was a kind of Pullman open section arrangement; by day the seats were for the use of (male) smokers but by night the sections were made up into berths for the dining car staff. At least that's how they were used in the early days on the 'Trans Canada Limited', but I'm sure they were used in a more conventional manner on many trains. I don't know if the seating was used as regular coach seating or if they remained reserved for smoking.

As for modelling one...

Geoff

[nickelplate759]

A couple more notes: I checker the 1954 ORER and noted that wood cars reinforced with steel under frames are noted as such in the ORER; there is no such note for the 'wood' horse cars. Hmmmm?

On CP 'combines' were "baggage smokers" and listed as such in ORER. The seating was a kind of Pullman open section arrangement; by day the seats were for the use of (male) smokers but by night the sections were made up into berths for the dining car staff. At least that's how they were used in the early days on the 'Trans Canada Limited', but I'm sure they were used in a more conventional manner on many trains. I don't know if the seating was used as regular coach seating or if they remained reserved for smoking.

As for modelling one...

Geoff

Well, a certain G. Gooderham makes a resin kit for a wooden car of similar configuration to the baggage-smoker in the picture...

but the car in the Alouette appears to be steel, longer, and has 6-wheel trucks.  It seems to appear  in the majority of the photos of the Alouette that I've found.

George

[Missaberoad]

The "Tracks" article is not much help. It discusses a series of 47' cars of basically freight car design with an arch roof, end ladders and arch bar trucks (although the cars were equipped with steam and air lines for passenger train service (with arch bar trucks?)). The CP Historical Association website has detailed drawings of these cars

That would be these palace cars, There was a couple on the old spur to the local race track here for years. They used them to store straw...

http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/photos/cpr_rolling/Horse_Palace_1.jpg

A couple more notes: I checker the 1954 ORER and noted that wood cars reinforced with steel under frames are noted as such in the ORER; there is no such note for the 'wood' horse cars. Hmmmm?

I wonder when the ban on mixing wood and steel cars came about, does it date back to when the steel cars were introduced or is it a later thing? I see lots of 1940's pictures with wood and steel mixed, could be reinforced under frames but i don't know...

On CP 'combines' were "baggage smokers" and listed as such in ORER. The seating was a kind of Pullman open section arrangement; by day the seats were for the use of (male) smokers but by night the sections were made up into berths for the dining car staff. At least that's how they were used in the early days on the 'Trans Canada Limited', but I'm sure they were used in a more conventional manner on many trains. I don't know if the seating was used as regular coach seating or if they remained reserved for smoking.

As for modelling one...

Geoff

@Shipsure Looking for a combine prototype? 

[Angus Shops]

Yes indeed, that resin car from the certain Geoff Gooderham is a combine in all but name, but almost entirely used in mixed train service. And still a "baggage smoker" as far as the CPR was concerned.

I'm not sure when the prohibition on mixing steel and wood cars was enforced in the US, but it may have been different in Canada. There was a horrible collision involving a troop train of mixed steel and wood cars at Canoe, BC in 1951. The wood cars were splintered and the GAS LIGHTING set the wreckage on fire! The resulting inquiry outlawed the use of wood cars on all but a few branch line mixed trains. Shocking! Apparently steel reinforced passenger occupied cars also had to be marshalled at the rear of passeger trains afterwards as well.

Bottom line, with regards to the photo of the possible Allouette, that may be a pre 1951 image, and/or some obscure rule regarding the use of non passenger occupied cars... But it's still an international train in interchange service...

I'm venturing desisively into areas I know next to nothing about. I'm certain someone out there can fill in the blanks.

Geoff

[nickelplate759]

Fred Kleinsorge shows that same picture of the Alouette on his web site and states that it was taken in  December 1949.

http://www.trainweb.org/fredatsf/CPalouette.htm

George

[thomasjmdavis]

I think the restriction on mixing wood and steel cars had to do with "passenger carrying cars" but would still allow for wooden baggage cars in trains with a steel coach.  I imagine, like most roads, the CP horse cars might sometimes travel as baggage or express cars- ie, no horses or attendants. 

In the US, wood frame passenger cars were almost gone by 1950 (300 left in 1950, according to JH White)- but substantially because the life span of a wood frame was usually somewhere around 30 years- and (with very few exceptions) any that were rebuilt after about 1910 were given steel underframes.

The ORPTE for 1954 indeed shows the BH cars as still having wood frames, but I note that most wood coaches and "baggage smokers" were labeled with "Note L", which in the case of CP listings indicated the cars were not used for interchange with US roads.  Some wood baggage cars show the restriction and others not.

[Gozer the Gozerian]

I wanna thank you guys for such great work, really.  Not sure if evoking the spirit of Puddington is appropriate, but this is the kind of yeomen work he did for us, all the time.  He kept at it till he had the best info possible.   I understand we can't hit every proto all the time, but I try as hard as I can to get as close as possible.  I think this research will make this a better product.

Thanks so much.

Joe
MTL

[Missaberoad]

Don't want to speak for everyone but it was my pleasure Joe! I definitely learned a few things.

Always willing to help with whatever you're cooking.
My geekdom tends to lean to Upper midwest, the PNW and Canadian roads, but I love scrounging for information.

Glad we were able to help.

Edit: Almost forgot... you know where to come when you need pictures for Soo line passenger cars. "cough cough" 

[Angus Shops]

I miss Puddington too. He'd have been able settle all of these questions right out of the gate.

Geoff