Author Topic: From Lance Mindheim blog Planning For Success in N Scale  (Read 12167 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

mmagliaro

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 6490
  • Gender: Male
  • Respect: +2011
    • Maxcow Online
Re: From Lance Mindheim blog Planning For Success in N Scale
« Reply #45 on: May 12, 2016, 10:30:56 PM »
0
Linky?

I imagine the problem is that no matter how much staging we have, we buy more stuff to fill it such that it can never be enough.  I remember Tony Koester saying something like take the amount of staging you think you need, then double it and add more.

Tell me about it.  I am a relative NP/SP&S "newbie" and I already have more rolling stock than my layout can possibly hold comfortably, and I don't have even 100 cars.  (And then... there's all that pesky PRR and NYC rolling stock I've still got... just in case I decide to take out the T1 or I1 and put something appropriate behind them...)

pnolan48

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 1754
  • Respect: +136
Re: From Lance Mindheim blog Planning For Success in N Scale
« Reply #46 on: May 12, 2016, 11:50:03 PM »
0
I find Lance's observations spot on. When you get into the area of commercial building, criteria change toward the proven and durable and away from the pretty and fragile. I loved the look of my 1100 linear foot Atlas C55 layout with about 90 Atlas switches, and I had mostly good luck running it continously, with its 45 minute loop. Over nine years I had one switch go bad to the extent I replaced it instead of coaxing it back into suitable performance, as if that were possible.

But I never would have used those materials for a commercial production! When I build ships for a museum, there are completely different criteria than ships for my own pleasure or for what I offer as kits or built-ups. Over the past 40 years in N scale, I've used most everything that's come on the market or up for discussion for motive power, rolling stock, track/switches, scenery materials, layout construction. power supplies, tools, and just about any other category aligned with the hobby.

I've found that what works for me isn't always working for other people. And if I'm going to put something out for the public, then the more bulletproof, the better. That doesn't rule out advances in the hobby--who would've thought of using vinyl cutters for styrene?--but it does mean that those of us who choose to go commercial have to be very conservative. You can't be on the leading edge, let alone the bleeding edge, at first; that comes only after you're established.

Dave V

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 12234
  • Gender: Male
  • Foothills Farm Studios -- Dave's Model Railroading
  • Respect: +11671
Re: From Lance Mindheim blog Planning For Success in N Scale
« Reply #47 on: May 13, 2016, 12:42:56 PM »
0
Mike Danneman uses Peco code 55 on his awesome D&RGW layout.

wcfn100

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 8945
  • Respect: +1381
    • Chicago Great Western Modeler
Re: From Lance Mindheim blog Planning For Success in N Scale
« Reply #48 on: May 13, 2016, 12:51:13 PM »
+2
Mike Danneman uses Peco code 55 on his awesome D&RGW layout.

Mike definitely figured that one out - use black cinders for ballast or cover it in snow.   :)

Jason

Dave V

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 12234
  • Gender: Male
  • Foothills Farm Studios -- Dave's Model Railroading
  • Respect: +11671
Re: From Lance Mindheim blog Planning For Success in N Scale
« Reply #49 on: May 17, 2016, 09:21:41 PM »
+1
Mike definitely figured that one out - use black cinders for ballast or cover it in snow.   :)

Jason

True 'nuff...  And, I spent the entire weekend rafting on the Arkansas River through Bighorn Sheep Canyon and the upper Royal Gorge along the now-dormant D&RGW Tennessee Pass line and I can truthfully say Mike has captured the look of the Rio Grande ROW perfectly...especially the coal slag ballast.

It's a little disheartening that every N scale track system seems to have a disadvantage.  If I were in HO I'd be all over the Peco North American code 83.

robert3985

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 3552
  • Respect: +1929
Re: From Lance Mindheim blog Planning For Success in N Scale
« Reply #50 on: May 18, 2016, 05:04:46 AM »
+9
Thought I'd chime in too. 

Lance's recommendations for "Planning for Success in N-scale" has some real problems, and if followed will ensure no-joy in the "Success" department. Some recommendations are self-contradictory, and others are based on non-factual assumptions.

Lance Mistake #1: The first "wrong" assumption that Lance makes is that bigger is better.  By "better" I am sure he means that elusively defined term "bulletproof".  Since maybe my definition of "bulletproof" is different than yours, I'll use another couple of words which are what I seek in building models, modules and layouts for myself and others in my nearly 40 years of doing so...those words are "trouble-free"...and in my long-term experience and experimentation, size has very little to do with being trouble-free.

Lance Mistake #2: Lance says:  "If you go with code 80, the larger wheel to rail contact area gives improved electrical pick up."  Lance's odd contention that code 80 rail somehow ensures better electrical contact between rail and metal wheels is totally specious.  The railhead could be three feet wide and electrical contact between it and the conical surface of the metal model train wheel would be the same, unless the three foot wide railhead was tipped to match the approximately 1 in 20 semi-conical angle ratio of the model wheel rolling surface, and the wheels got automatically wider as the railhead gets wider.  This means that there's the same amount of contact patch area on any width railhead with typical N-scale railhead dimensions and wheel rolling surface angles.  So, "bigger" rails have NOTHING to do with improved electrical pickup reliability.

But, if he can prove it to me, then I'll believe it.  In the meantime, my trains run (and have run) flawlessly on C80, C70, C55, C40 and C30...the size of the rail having zero influence on electrical pickup goodness.

Lance then comments on his choice of Peco 80 because he states it is "Without question the most reliable N scale track product on the market". He also states that its "downside" is "of course, its out of scale appearance."  Kato Unitrack is at least as reliable in normal use, as are other products. However, this leads us to  Lance Mistake #3: Calling the appearance of Peco 80 as merely "out of scale" is grossly euphemistic...it's as ugly as the a$$-end of my neighbor's 14 year old pit bull when she's in heat. Here's some news for ya...it isn't modeled after "British prototype railways", or any other prototype I've ever researched...it's specifically designed to look like the toy track that N-gauge trainsets ran on when they first appeared under your Christmas tree back in the 60's and 70's. The proportions are just about half a century old and are in direct opposition to the finely detailed and properly proportioned present-day, 21st Century models of trains that will run reliably on top of it in spite of its fugliness. (I'm not picking on just Peco, but on everything else too, with the exception of Atlas 55 and ME)

Anybody on this thread have any problems with their flex (no matter what brand) becoming less reliable over time?  Does anybody have anvils falling out of the sky onto their model track? I didn't think so. So, why is code 80 rail needed at all in N-scale?...either fully visible or with .025" imbedded in the tie strip?

Next question...anybody have problems with trains running over dead-frog turnouts?  I can see the hands shooting up in the air.  Lance Mistake #3:  Dead frog turnouts????  Is he SERIOUS??  First he says that bigger rail means a better electrical contact patch, then recommends DEAD FROGS???...With zero electrical contact? Why not fix the turnouts' problems both before and during installation so you'll KNOW they'll work, rather than jury-rig a solution after the fact? BECAUSE IT INCREASES PRODUCTION TIME...if you're building your layout to meet a customer's deadline.  If you're building it yourself for yourself, taking a little extra time to do it right will go a long way in adding to your satisfaction and it won't cut into your profit margins.

Lance Mistakes #4 & #5: Suggesting using code 70 rail joiners instead of code 55 rail joiners on ME code 55 track...then on the next page under "Three Common Construction Errors" he states: "...never, ever solder your rail joints..."  Then, a bit further on gives his opinion that "...soldering a feed to every rail is unnecessary overkill "  Hmmmm....loose rail joiners...not soldered...feeders not on every piece of rail.  Lance's advice here is an electrical cluster-you-know-what...that WILL happen if you choose to take his advice when laying your track and electrifying it.

Lance does say some things that I agree with...sort of.  He admits that ME C55 is as mechanically sound as Peco products (both C80 AND C55 if I'm reading this right)...but using his logic about railhead size making better electrical "pick-up" then, shouldn't he have recommended ME C70 flex???  Just askin'....  :trollface:

I also agree on Lance's high layout height recommendation.  As I'm getting older, it's a lot more comfortable for me to observe my trains and work on my layout, both on top and underneath...with my railheads being a nominal 52" above the floor, with sections above and below that.

Although I agree with Lance that body-mounted couplers work better than talgo couplers/trucks, I do not find that mixing them causes any problems either switching or in mainline running...but I run extra broad curves everywhere, so maybe small radii would cause problems. Switching over to body mounts (Z-scale MT's for me) is an ongoing process on my layout. (edit: @peteski comments "I can't disagree with any of your points. Well, maybe the one about mixing body- and truck-mounted couples being ok. If you take one of the modern long Kato Diesel locos with long porches and body-mounted couplers, and you couple it to something like MTL 89' TT flat car with deeply-inboard mounted trucks and swinging couplers, you are asking for trouble, even on curves which aren't very tight."  Since my time period is 1947 thru 1956, I don't run motive power and cars that more modern modelers may have on their layouts or be interested in.  Thanks Peter for the added insight! rgg)

I also agree that Magnematic uncoupling is something I can do without, along with the MTL "dongles" which cause more running problems than they're worth.  Give me a martini skewer over a magnet any day....SNIP..off they all come on my layout.  No dongle problems here.

Lance's recommendation of Kato & Atlas motive power is a relatively sure thing (I've had a few problems with both of these brands in the past), but dated.  I would say that nowadays in 2016, most new engines from all the major manufacturers run well, and reliably...especially the diesels.  Beginners should buy diesels, with maybe a Bachmann Consolidation as their first steam engine.  My old Life-Like FA/FB's just keep on running...they always have, and the detail is excellent other than the small number boards for my UP lashups.

Micro Trains rolling stock?  That's a safe recommendation, unless you want realistic running boards, etched & separate detailing, correct ride height, metal wheelsets and accurate, road-specific details.  MTL lost its monopoly on being "the best" rolling stock years ago, with Atlas, FVM, Athearn, BLMA, Trainworks, Intermountain, WOT, Rapido and others competing, catching up and surpassing MTL.  With all my thousands of pieces of rolling stock, I only had running problems with some of my old Con Cor passenger car trucks, with the metal wheelsets falling out sometimes, so Lance's recommendation to replace trucks and wheelsets with MTL products is not entirely correct or necessary.  All of my MTL plastic lo-pros are slowly being relaced by FVM narrow metal lo-pros.  MTL better figure this out soon if they want to continue to compete IMHO.

Adding so much weight that your engines just barely can pull your cars without "stalling out" is just plain silly.  What if I'm only pulling six cars and a caboose?  Since Lance builds and designs mainly switching layouts, he should specify that cars which get switched in sharp industrial trackage need to be heavily weighted...the rest need to be weighted to NMRA standards if possible.  Smooth trackwork goes much further than adding lead in my experience.

For a rank beginner who wants to set up trains on the ping-pong table...or put together something to enjoy with his little kids, or who wants to fiddle around with various styles of trackplans before settling on one that suits his/her needs and druthers...I always recommend Kato Unitrack...over any other track product.  And I also recommend buying a Kato trainset or two to run on the Unitrack...all for an effortless, reliable, easy-to-assemble-and-use, re-usable positive model railroad experience.

However, for those modelers who are detail oriented and further along, I recommend ME C55 flex, ME C55 #6 turnouts, Atlas #10 turnouts, wyes, curved turnouts & diamonds, and finding out if they want to learn how to roll their own turnouts, for more versatility, saving a LOT of money, more reliability and better looks...and to see if they just like it.

For myself, my claim to having found "trouble-free" operation, AND fairly prototypical appearance is not influenced by owning a commercial enterprise making as many layouts as I can during the year.  Although getting things done in a fairly timely manner IS still important for me, I don't have a "production line", so I don't consider cleaning up the burrs on cut rails and filing a couple of angles on the corners of the rail feet to allow easy insertion of matching, tight code 55 rail joiners with my flat-nose pliers to be burdensome.

My layout is portable, which means it MUST be durable and robust because it goes to shows at least twice a year, traveling several hundred miles in the back of my Suburban and in a large U-haul trailer.  True reliability starts with the benchwork, and I use wooden L-girders with splined Masonite subroadbed supported by risers attached to cross-members all glued and screwed together. 

The key to mechanically sound trackwork is to have a structurally strong subroadbed with a firm yet resilient roadbed, sanded smooth to remove any gross and sudden height variations....Midwest Cork Products N-scale and HO scale roadbed fit this bill perfectly.  ME or RC flex gets carefully laid to spec's determined by first designing using a CAD program, then printing a roadbed template so I always KNOW exactly what radius my trackwork has, and where the spiral easements begin and end.  ME stiff flex fits the bill in two ways...first, I can lay it exactly to a predetermined centerline because it stays in the curve I choose to bend it to, and second, its gauge is finer and more consistent than any other "floppy" flex.  I NEVER ASSUME that just because it looks pretty good when laid that it's reliable, so I always test it for a few days, running trains to prove that it's done reliably.  I solder EVERY RAIL JOINT, but my layout is sectional, so there is never a section over 6' long...and I NEVER have expansion/contraction problems with my ballasted track....never.

Also, to ensure ultimate reliability, durability and a fairly prototypical appearance, I hand-lay every turnout that goes on my layout, except for two ME #6's in Echo Yard I installed as a long-term test of the brand.  They still work flawlessly after over 20 years, which is one reason I recommend them so often.

I also run a 22AWG solid-core copper feeder (less than 6" long) from the center of each and every piece of rail on the layout..except for my PCB turnouts, where I allow the PCB's to carry current to the assembly.  Each frog is live, and powered from NWSL Tortoises underneath.

Code 40 trackage is hand-laid on PCB ties (every fifth tie) on the Park City Branchline and will be at Devil's Slide and the Ideal Concrete Plant complex.  UP-style center sidings are ME and Rail Craft C40, with the inner spikeheads sanded down so that my motive power will run on it.

The only electrical "problems" I have periodically on the layout EVER is dirty track, especially during heavy running at shows...which I take care of by running Masonite board track cleaning cars in each freight train, and using a soft Bright Boy in the yards and mainlines at the start of each day at the show.

Trains run smoothly and ultra-reliably on the mainlines and through my turnouts and other turnouts built to my specs on other sections built by my partners who buckle up to our show layout. At home, after setting up after a show (takes me about five hours to do it by myself) any damage done in-transit would not have been prevented by using code 80 rails as it's always scenery damage...not track damage.

I love the fact that I am not having to "cover up" or "hide" anything about the track I use on my layout.  Just the opposite...I emphasize it with the painting, weathering and ballasting, which ironically makes the code 80 track on other layouts I work on look better also. 

I continue to understand people who agree with Lance's methodology, but...I also know through just as many years of experience...that he is over-compensating with his bigger-is-better, and out-of-date recommendations for present-day N-scale layouts...and some of his recommendations will produce problems over time on almost any N-scale layout or module..

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

« Last Edit: May 18, 2016, 06:38:44 AM by robert3985 »

peteski

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 35275
  • Gender: Male
  • Honorary Resident Curmudgeon
  • Respect: +6644
    • Coming (not so) soon...
Re: From Lance Mindheim blog Planning For Success in N Scale
« Reply #51 on: May 18, 2016, 05:23:34 AM »
+1
Wow Bob - you wrote a novel of a post!  Must have taken a while.  But I have to say that I enjoyed reading it and that I can't disagree with any of your points. Well, maybe the one about mixing body- and truck-mounted couples being ok. If you take one of the modern long Kato Diesel locos with long porches and body-mounted couplers, and you couple it to something like MTL 89' TT flat car with deeply-inboard mounted trucks and swinging couplers, you are asking for trouble, even on curves which aren't very tight.
. . . 42 . . .

robert3985

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 3552
  • Respect: +1929
Re: From Lance Mindheim blog Planning For Success in N Scale
« Reply #52 on: May 18, 2016, 06:18:19 AM »
0
Wow Bob - you wrote a novel of a post!  Must have taken a while.  But I have to say that I enjoyed reading it and that I can't disagree with any of your points. Well, maybe the one about mixing body- and truck-mounted couples being ok. If you take one of the modern long Kato Diesel locos with long porches and body-mounted couplers, and you couple it to something like MTL 89' TT flat car with deeply-inboard mounted trucks and swinging couplers, you are asking for trouble, even on curves which aren't very tight.

Thanks Peter @peteski,   Yup...did take me a while but I've got the flu and I've been up all night coughing and blowing my nose, so why not write a novel???

I appreciate your point about mixing talgo and body-mounts and I can definitely see your point.  Since I don't run anything like that on my layout...being set between 1947 thru 1956...my comments are based on my experience.  I'll do an edit and include your comments for added clarity.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

Blazeman

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 1306
  • Respect: +65
Re: From Lance Mindheim blog Planning For Success in N Scale
« Reply #53 on: May 18, 2016, 08:00:56 AM »
+1
 ...specifically designed to look like the toy track that N-gauge trainsets ran on when they first appeared under your Christmas tree back in the 60's and 70's. The proportions are just about half a century old ...

Wouldn't one like to be able to go back in time to find the designer that perpetrated this on the scale and smack the back of his head and tell him: "get real!"

Dave V

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 12234
  • Gender: Male
  • Foothills Farm Studios -- Dave's Model Railroading
  • Respect: +11671
Re: From Lance Mindheim blog Planning For Success in N Scale
« Reply #54 on: May 18, 2016, 08:45:44 AM »
0
@robert3985,

First off, thanks for what may be the longest post in Railwire history!

Secondly, with regard to ME c55 #6s...  I've read conflicting guidance on whether these can be used with DCC without modification.  I have a few on hand, and while I went all Atlas c55 on the Colorado Midland (and hope to not regret that!), a mix of Atlas c55 track with ME c55 turnouts is one of the possible way-aheads for the future of the Juniata Division (the others being perhaps more Mindheim-esque?).  What are your thoughts?

wcfn100

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 8945
  • Respect: +1381
    • Chicago Great Western Modeler
Re: From Lance Mindheim blog Planning For Success in N Scale
« Reply #55 on: May 18, 2016, 09:18:39 AM »
0
@robert3985

Secondly, with regard to ME c55 #6s...  I've read conflicting guidance on whether these can be used with DCC without modification.

That could stem from ME changing the design of their turnouts to be DCC friendly several years back.

Jason

Dave V

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 12234
  • Gender: Male
  • Foothills Farm Studios -- Dave's Model Railroading
  • Respect: +11671
Re: From Lance Mindheim blog Planning For Success in N Scale
« Reply #56 on: May 18, 2016, 10:24:09 AM »
0
That could stem from ME changing the design of their turnouts to be DCC friendly several years back.

Jason

If so, what's the "spotting feature" I should look for on second-hand turnouts that'll tell me they're DCC-ready?

wcfn100

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 8945
  • Respect: +1381
    • Chicago Great Western Modeler
Re: From Lance Mindheim blog Planning For Success in N Scale
« Reply #57 on: May 18, 2016, 11:21:46 AM »
0
If so, what's the "spotting feature" I should look for on second-hand turnouts that'll tell me they're DCC-ready?

I'm certainly not an authority, but I believe there's a well defined gap on both ends of the cast frog, plus there are two small jumper wires between the stock rails and the closure rails.

If you're buying from the package, it looks like sometimes you see the DCC friendly notation on the papers.

Jason

rochsub

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 371
  • Respect: +253
    • The N Scale UPRR Geneva Subdivision
Re: From Lance Mindheim blog Planning For Success in N Scale
« Reply #58 on: May 18, 2016, 11:26:20 AM »
+1
I would not recommend it for beginners, but Fast Tracks assembly jigs make quick, easy work for very high quality turnouts.   If you are going to mess with "fixing" purchased turnouts anyway, you might as well build them yourself.  I do not recommend using their "quick-ties" as they make the turnouts very expensive.  I just glue M.E. wood ties onto a paper tie template that can be downloaded from the Fast Tracks website. The assembly jigs are $120, but it only takes 10-12 turnouts to recoup the cost.  I know some will say you can make turnouts without the jigs, which is true.  But for me, the jigs save a lot of time and make quality more consistent.

Daryl

Frank Amato

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 1407
  • Gender: Male
  • Respect: +930
Re: From Lance Mindheim blog Planning For Success in N Scale
« Reply #59 on: May 18, 2016, 12:08:28 PM »
+1
@robert3985 , props for working "dongle" into your post - well played sir!

  Frank