Author Topic: A free-moN version of the WBTR  (Read 14007 times)

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Missaberoad

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Re: A free-moN version of the WBTR
« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2016, 12:39:47 AM »
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If he's looking at a Rocky Soo transfer, then it would be 70's.  And the Minnesota Transfer was all Alco until the SW1500's came along in 1967.

Good point.... I made an assumption considering Wyatt's interest in a combined Soo/Milwaukee and Rock Island that his era is a little fluid.  :)
Speaking of witch Wyatt are you considering a specific era or cutoff?


Ryan in Alberta

Missaberoad

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Re: A free-moN version of the WBTR
« Reply #31 on: May 05, 2016, 12:49:09 AM »
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I found This aerial photo from 1991 It shows the area From Cardigan Jct. to New Brighton Including the Lexington Ave spur and shows at least two more industries in service at that time.

Going back to the Google map the buildings are labeled Staples Fulfillment center and Venture Solutions. (no idea what they were when rail served) bringing Lexington ave up to 6 industries. add 3 or 4 at New Brighton and a couple each at Camden and Humboldt.

I'm thinking a layout based on these elements with some scenic sections in between would give you the operation you're looking for...

Humboldt yard --- Camden Jct --- New Brighton (with a short branch to include the MTR yard) --- Lexington Ave --- Cardigan Jct

The only question is space lol  :D
« Last Edit: May 05, 2016, 12:51:34 AM by Missaberoad »
Ryan in Alberta

wcfn100

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Re: A free-moN version of the WBTR
« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2016, 12:51:00 AM »
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On the subject of transfer moves, a couple of others stand out as unique like the Rocky-SOO.

First would be the MN&S Northtown Yard transfer with one of their Baldwin centercabs.

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2771631

Also somewhat infamous are the Dolly Sisters (two RS27s) on the SOO Line transfer the Railway Transfer Yard in Minneapolis (CNW/ex-MSTL).  Here they are coming out from the "The Hole in the Wall" about to get to pass the old Minneapolis depot.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/24988213@N08/9161262572

Jason

Missaberoad

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Re: A free-moN version of the WBTR
« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2016, 12:58:08 AM »
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Also somewhat infamous are the Dolly Sisters (two RS27s) on the SOO Line transfer the Railway Transfer Yard in Minneapolis (CNW/ex-MSTL).  Here they are coming out from the "The Hole in the Wall" about to get to pass the old Minneapolis depot.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/24988213@N08/9161262572

Jason

Do you know if that transfer would have originated in Humboldt yard?
I really wish I had a better understanding of Minneapolis west of the Mississippi so much interesting trackage is gone!
Ryan in Alberta

wcfn100

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Re: A free-moN version of the WBTR
« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2016, 01:09:02 AM »
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Do you know if that transfer would have originated in Humboldt yard?
I really wish I had a better understanding of Minneapolis west of the Mississippi so much interesting trackage is gone!

I assume it came out of Shoreham but can try and double check.

Jason

wcfn100

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Re: A free-moN version of the WBTR
« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2016, 01:53:29 AM »
+1
So don't ever get me started on MN railroading...

Looking for some other stuff, I came across these interesting shots.

SOO RS27 at ex-CGW State St. yard.  This would be a few months after the CNW/CGW merger and the yard is desolate.  As noted in the picture, this is the first run to the Roseport refinery that the CGW used to do.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1447/25284000299_d787c8c76f_k.jpg

To get to State St. the SOO crossed the Mississippi at the St. Paul Union Depot on the ex-CGW bridge.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1550/25625406156_09e0e21167_k.jpg

And finally at Roseport.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1527/25532869962_85809b2048_k.jpg

Hopefully Wyatt will pick something soon so we can stop hi-jacking his thread.  :)

Jason
« Last Edit: May 05, 2016, 02:11:10 AM by wcfn100 »

BOK

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Re: A free-moN version of the WBTR
« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2016, 07:39:57 AM »
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Transfer 2 or the "Rocky Soo" originated down in Innver Grove yard on the Rock Island running with RI/SP/UP or whatever power the Rock could come up with and a Soo steel caboose, The route was RI-CGW-BN to Soo Line Jct., up to Cadigan Jct., around the west leg of the wye and on to Shoreham. At Shoreham it often went west past Central Ave. (Hi-Lo Jct.) then peeled off on the Foley Wye south into Shoreham using the Park tracks. They would set out in the "Park" and then pick up their out bound from Shoreham yard proper already made up with a Soo caboose.

By taking this route through the "Park" the power was turned via a balloon track and was quickly, ready after receing an air test and bills to run back to Innver Grove retracing its route. As a rules and safety guy for the Soo back in the 70s I rode this job many times. Note as I recall they weren't allowed to to do any "way" work (enroute switching) with the exception of maybe the Pillsbury "A" mill, American Crane or CGW interchange.

Barry

Ed Kapuscinski

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Re: A free-moN version of the WBTR
« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2016, 08:34:23 AM »
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Wyatt, one thing to keep in mind about switching opportunity. It doesn't take much to make it interesting. Take a look at some of the "thought leaders" on such things: http://lancemindheim.com/contact/, and this book especially:
http://www.amazon.com/How-Operate-Modern-Switching-Layout/dp/1467956996/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1422390427&sr=8-4&keywords=lance+mindheim


soo

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Re: A free-moN version of the WBTR
« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2016, 08:47:17 AM »
+1
First off let me say I am very appreciative  for everyone's input and insight.

The time span would be from 1975 thru 1985 ish.

I love to get ahold of the dolly sisters!!!!! SOO Minnesota railroading just screams " Dolly Sisters"

Quote
I'm thinking a layout based on these elements with some scenic sections in between would give you the operation you're looking for...

Humboldt yard --- Camden Jct --- New Brighton (with a short branch to include the MTR yard) --- Lexington Ave --- Cardigan Jct


I was talking with Allen Heimsoth last night on the phone,, Ryan's idea is just what I am shooting for, AWESOME job Ryan!!!!

But for my purpose the Minnesota Transfer would be re-named the Western Wisconsin Belt Ry. Allen and I have been working on a paint scheme and playing with different fonts. I digress...

Cardigan would have to be a junction section,, to allow other free-moN sections to attach.

New Brighton would be a module ( couple of sections) to allow further expansion during shows.

There would also be turnback loops involved so I could stage trains for the CRIP, SOO,MNS,and the WWBry( MTry)

As for the space,, Well,, that is where free-moN comes into play. I do have two walls to use for the layout,, 6' and 20'-10"

The very first drawing I posted is what I plan to " keep" up, so the initial thought was to have 5  1'-6" x 6' long sections. But seeing as I need to add New Brighton in,, it would go to 4 and then a "T" section for the junction. The turnback loops and any other sections I plan on using would be a take down and set up for ops kind of thing.

But I would have the floor space in the garage when the family chariot is not parked in there.

I have decided to call you guys the Minnesota railroading brain trust.. MRBT.

Ok, now it's go time,, trackplan,, geez I hate those things...LOL :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :scared: :scared: :scared:

Any one done any doodling yet??? PLEASE,, pretty please.LOL

Once again guys, thank you so much for the help, insight, research and thought. Just goes to prove not everyone on TRW is a eastcoast/pennsy fan......hahahahahahahaha

Adios, Wyatt

jpwisc

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Re: A free-moN version of the WBTR
« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2016, 10:16:13 AM »
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...
Ok, now it's go time,, trackplan,, geez I hate those things...LOL :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :scared: :scared: :scared:

Any one done any doodling yet??? PLEASE,, pretty please.LOL

...
Adios, Wyatt

The track plan is the fun part. I used to live a mile from Cardigan Jct., that is an area I'm very familiar with. I'll draw up a draft tonight, I'm sure the guys will have some good options for you pretty quick.
Karl
CEO of the Skally Line, an Eastern MN Shortline.

BOK

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Re: A free-moN version of the WBTR
« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2016, 01:01:17 PM »
+1
For nine years from day one, I was the WC trainmaster at New Brighton. We had our Twin Cities "terminal" there, completely on Soo trackage righta and owned no track. Every day I had to request the ability to either leave cars on the former Soo main or Commercial yard until my transfer could return from delivering to either BN Northtown or Soo Humboldt. Our operation worked something like this.

WC No. 5, for Minneapolis, would depart Stevens Point in the afternoon, blocked: CFs/MNNR/SOO/BN, run the 230 miles to the Twin Cities setting out and picking up at CF yard enroute and arriving New Brighton about midnight. No. 5's crew would set out cars for the MNNR before shoving back east of diamond, tie down their train and then tie up for rest. At about the same time the WC Transfer crew would come on duty, tie down the BNs and cut them off taking the Soos to Humboldt and return with Soo outbounds. After shoving their Soos into the MNNR west yard, they would tie onto the BNs, do an air test if over the two limit and then make a trip over to Northtown and back using the Shoreham south lead and frequently getting delayed by Soo crews who would pull down and block us as they waited to get on the BN to St.Paul. Upon returning to New Brighton the Transfer would line up any "shorts" ,on the headend for CFand then double the Soos on top of the BNs, followed by the MNNRs and any shorts, call the road crew to work, get their paperwork ready for them and then tie up leaving No. 6's train, all made up, air tested and left west of the diamond for the road crew.

We were able to operate this way by leaving cars behind on the Soo main at night because at that time they didn't use the route from Shoreham to Cardigan Jct. and Withrow(beginning of WC ownership) for anything other than their daylight Transfer 1 which came up from St. Paul and only switched a few industries at the , the St. Paul waterworks(tanks of chlorine and hoppers of lime), the LexingtonAve. industrial park (paper/cardboard box company, a Miller beer distributor) and another paper board company out at White Bear Lake. Other than Transfer 1 the Soo would also run frequent Dresser Turns, rock (ballast) trains out to the Dresser, WI quarry on our branch out of Withrow so there were some days when we had to dodge them also. About two years after start up we started handling 125 car, UP coal trains off the MNNR at New Brighton and return mtys for Green Bay and Weston power plants, which also could screw up our operation. Keep in mind we handled all these trains with out the benefit of a siding/run around track and only both legs of the wye plus a short spur I named the Amery spur to hold cars for the once a week local we ranout there( east of Dresser) to handle pulpwood loading and seasonal fertz..

There was more than once that I had a transfer coming east into New Brighton, UP coal lds coming north off the MNNR and WC coal mtys coming west for the UP all having to get by each other and continue to their destinations. The only I could accomplish all these moves as promtly as possible was using the wye and a lot of slow 10 MPH movements back and forth. The local motorists really "loved" us on those days. But that's a story for another day.

The point of all this detail is to show that very little track and switches are necessary to handle a lot of trains...we just think they are. I hope I didn't bore you with too much information.

Barry

Missaberoad

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Re: A free-moN version of the WBTR
« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2016, 01:22:32 PM »
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So don't ever get me started on MN railroading...

By all means I love it :)
Ryan in Alberta

Missaberoad

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Re: A free-moN version of the WBTR
« Reply #42 on: May 05, 2016, 01:47:46 PM »
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No worries Wyatt Glad to be of help! and glad to move the Railwire away from the coasts.  :trollface:

I think your choice will give some impressive options for show running and operations. Like Barry and Ed say it doesn't take much track work to create interest.

Here's a doodle of the Lexington Ave area with all the spurs visible on the 1991 photo added in.



and one with a section superimposed to give an idea of what you could accomplish.



a few thoughts,

- Keeping the freeway underpass at the extreme west end would add interest
- Obviously the spur to the Intentional paper container board plant gets cut off, perhaps that track could curve to the left and follow the backdrop  and the plant could be a background flat.
- You could easily add in a runaround but if all the spurs face one direction it wouldn't be necessary. (only one faces the "wrong" way on the prototype)

Hopefully This is enough to get a track plan happening :) I'll play around with some other areas aswell, very excited to see what you come up with...

Ryan in Alberta

Missaberoad

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Re: A free-moN version of the WBTR
« Reply #43 on: May 05, 2016, 01:51:14 PM »
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The point of all this detail is to show that very little track and switches are necessary to handle a lot of trains...we just think they are. I hope I didn't bore you with too much information.

Barry

Very much interested and I don't think anyone interested with this project would use the word bored! :)
Thanks for sharing you're experience. I'm sure I'll have a bunch of questions once I get my own project organized!
Ryan in Alberta

Missaberoad

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Re: A free-moN version of the WBTR
« Reply #44 on: May 05, 2016, 04:53:54 PM »
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Here is a couple shots of the area from Camden Jct east over the bridge over Northtown yard to the Wye at the west end of Shoreham.



- I restored the south leg of the Wye at Camden but there would have been more industrial trackage in your era.
- Notice the interchange track between the Soo and Northtown starting on the first image and continuing to the second.



- The Wye to the extreme right is the entrance to Shoreham. New Brighton is off to the north east. (if you follow that line there is a second entrance to Shoreham)
- The spur on the north side of the Wye is on a map in one of my books, you can still see evidence of it on the aerial photo but I have no idea what it served.

Here's a great photo that really shows the entire area in one shot, starting Camden, you can see the BN interchange, the bridge over Northtown and the road overpass near the Shoreham Wye.



Thanks to Jason for sharing the Source http://www.railphoto-art.org/collections/abbey/


Ryan in Alberta