Rapido C40-8M for HO, when for N?

[jmlaboda - RIP]

For a new Rapido N scale car I might suggest the Fowler outside braced wood boxcar.  The original Fowler cars along with the clones..... I think there would be a good following.

What Fowler outside braced wood boxcar?  I just went to Rapido's website and found nothing about it.  Need something like it for my cow hide shipments to the leather mill on one of my branchlines...

[Mark5]

Then there are the bi-level Kawasaki cars used on the commuter lines around Boston. Again, not sure if that would be too region-specific.

I wonder if they are similar to the MARC Kawasakis ...

[peteski]

I wonder if they are similar to the MARC Kawasakis ...

[jmlaboda - RIP]

Peteski, what scale is that?  Definitely a nice model!!!  (Course just about anything in MBTA purple is nice for me...)

[peteski]

Peteski, what scale is that?  Definitely a nice model!!!  (Course just about anything in MBTA purple is nice for me...)

No idea - found the photo on the Interwebs, but judging by the coupler, it is horribly oversize. 

[rapidotrains]

I don't think I would. The Kato is an excellent model (visually and operationally).  I actually think its level of detail is a good balance of sturdiness and realism.  Let's face it - Rapido mechanism will not be in the same class as the silky-smooth Kato (which unlike Rapido also doesn't use any wires).  The shell (while maybe it will have additional details like separate grabs) will probably not be as finely made as Kato. Plus I'm sure the price will be way higher than Kato models.  So, even thought I ditched the Model Power ones for Katos, I would not be tempted to replace my Kato fleet with Rapidos.

I think this is a very good summary and explains our difficulty in the N scale market, as well as the difficulty that a lot of other primarily HO manufacturers face.

We just can't get out models at the same price point as Kato. They have economies of scale that are orders of magnitude greater than Rapido's production ability/capacity. If we brought out an N scale F40 with the exact same detail level as Kato it would probably be 60% more expensive. Sure our cars are more detailed than Kato, but for a market used to paying $25-$35 a car, there is a (justifiable) belief that a $55 car needs to be gold plated. And so our baggage car orders sit in the doldrums.

Mike is keen for us to start a large project in N scale, and I am discussing it with our engineers when I am in China next month. But I am very nervous about producing it because I know it would be expensive. We can eat the tooling costs of the baggage car while we wait for the orders to show up. We can't eat the tooling costs of a more complex model or train.

-Jason

[Puddington]

I think this is a very good summary and explains our difficulty in the N scale market, as well as the difficulty that a lot of other primarily HO manufacturers face.

We just can't get out models at the same price point as Kato. They have economies of scale that are orders of magnitude greater than Rapido's production ability/capacity. If we brought out an N scale F40 with the exact same detail level as Kato it would probably be 60% more expensive. Sure our cars are more detailed than Kato, but for a market used to paying $25-$35 a car, there is a (justifiable) belief that a $55 car needs to be gold plated. And so our baggage car orders sit in the doldrums.

Mike is keen for us to start a large project in N scale, and I am discussing it with our engineers when I am in China next month. But I am very nervous about producing it because I know it would be expensive. We can eat the tooling costs of the baggage car while we wait for the orders to show up. We can't eat the tooling costs of a more complex model or train.

-Jason

"apples and oranges".... the two projects are a million miles away from each other..... hey; what's you doin playing in my sandbox.....

[wmcbride]

I think this is a very good summary and explains our difficulty in the N scale market, as well as the difficulty that a lot of other primarily HO manufacturers face.

We just can't get out models at the same price point as Kato. They have economies of scale that are orders of magnitude greater than Rapido's production ability/capacity. If we brought out an N scale F40 with the exact same detail level as Kato it would probably be 60% more expensive. Sure our cars are more detailed than Kato, but for a market used to paying $25-$35 a car, there is a (justifiable) belief that a $55 car needs to be gold plated. And so our baggage car orders sit in the doldrums.

Mike is keen for us to start a large project in N scale, and I am discussing it with our engineers when I am in China next month. But I am very nervous about producing it because I know it would be expensive. We can eat the tooling costs of the baggage car while we wait for the orders to show up. We can't eat the tooling costs of a more complex model or train.

-Jason

I appreciate the risk but if there is one thing that always pops up in named-train threads in N (Kato) it's the NYC 20th Century Ltd. Also, an N-scale Rapido Canadian might be the ticket. I'd buy one (I actually would) but I have a weakness for these things from my many years in N before I branched out into larger models. I still have an N layout and I have two Illinois Central passenger trains and I don't model the IC. Before the Kato generic version came out, I had slowly and painstakingly (and on the cheap as best I could) collected Centralia cars and BLI E units. I did the same thing with the NYC 20th Century Limited with Centralia cars and BLI E8s over the years.

Lest I give the impression that I buy every passenger train that comes out, I don't. I modeled modern in N and have one Kato Amtrak Phase III/IV train with Genesis units. I don't have a Broadway Ltd or Via or NP , etc. that Kato has produced. What drew me to the 20th Century Ltd and the IC? My grandfather was a conductor for the NYC and I always liked the idea of the Panama Limited and the City of New Orleans. I also grew up thinking that orange and brown (as in Cleveland Browns) was a normal color combination.

Others can chime in with their sense of name trains and their attraction to N scalers. Personally, I think something like the 20th Century Ltd is chancy given the Centralia cars already out there and Katos's ability to pull the trigger and offer a generic version that might be good enough for most interested N scalers.

Now a Rapido Canadian would be something unique and attractive. Heck, I ordered one in HO just based on Jason's advertising (and passion) and on my past experience with Rapido products.

[peteski]

LOL!  I am also hopeful for a late '30s, or early '40s NYC 20th Century Ltd. set, but from Kato, not Rapido.

I already have the loco to pull it (brass).   As mentioned earlier, Kato's price point would be lower that Rapido, the shell engraving and level of detail just perfect (IMO), and they will most likely model each car in the consist accurately.   Well, I have no reference to see whether Rapido would actually model each car accurately, but Kato has a very good track record.  Specifically with their passenger car sets I won.  Kato already has those "Napoleon Hat" trucks available. Just need to make the cars. 

[Puddington]

LOL!  I am also hopeful for a late '30s, or early '40s NYC 20th Century Ltd. set, but from Kato, not Rapido.

I already have the loco to pull it (brass).   As mentioned earlier, Kato's price point would be lower that Rapido, the shell engraving and level of detail just perfect (IMO), and they will most likely model each car in the consist accurately.   Well, I have no reference to see whether Rapido would actually model each car accurately, but Kato has a very good track record.  Specifically with their passenger car sets I won.  Kato already has those "Napoleon Hat" trucks available. Just need to make the cars. 

Pete: To say you think Kato is the be all and end all is obvious but please, give us some credit; our HO Canadian set the standards for fidelity to prototype cars, our N scale cars are highly detailed CN prototypes (yes, like everyone else, we paint foobies... I give you Kato sets past and present as an example.. IC and Alaska come to mind) and I will put our detail up with anyones - see the new OB's in a few weeks.... Kato would be cheaper....ok; they're Kato and they have their own set of economic realities....  You can support your favorite brand without casting doubt on others in the process...

[peteski]

Pete: To say you think Kato is the be all and end all is obvious but please, give us some credit; our HO Canadian set the standards for fidelity to prototype cars, our N scale cars are highly detailed CN prototypes (yes, like everyone else, we paint foobies... I give you Kato sets past and present as an example.. IC and Alaska come to mind) and I will put our detail up with anyones - see the new OB's in a few weeks.... Kato would be cheaper....ok; they're Kato and they have their own set of economic realities....  You can support your favorite brand without casting doubt on others in the process...

Sorry Puddy, In I have (in-person) seen enough examples of N scale models from both Kato and Rapido to to formulate my opinion about both company's products. Each company is in its own league.  While there is no denying that Raipdo models have more fancy (but often oversize) details added, Kato has the edge over the molding fineness and thinly-applies paint.  Can't I freely voice my fact-based opinions about both brands of the models and based on that my expectations about some hypothetical model?  I'm not bashing Rapido - I just like Kato products better.

I will buy several Rapido OB cars when they are finally released, but if Kato made that same model, you know which I would go with.  Not because I blindly love Kato products. In my eyes they are (time after time) clearly better made (I don't care about fancy, often clunky, free-standing details).  I prefer a finely-molded-on details. Strictly personal preference.

Also the number of OB cars I will purchase will be curtailed by their price. As it has been said (by Jason himself), Kato can do it cheaper.  I would love to get at least half a dozen of OB cars, but for the currently estimated street cost, I would probably only end up with 4.

EDIT:  I don't want you to think that my opinion is that Kato is some sort of God - they are not. They made (and probably will make) their share of screw-ups, but their overall track record is still pretty damn good.

[Puddington]

Your experience with Kato is markedly different than mine; your perception of their merits is markedly different than mine, your opinion of their drive quality is completely different than mine (I now own 8 pooched Kato's.....) and your highly valued qualities are obviously different than mine... as we have both numerous years in the hobby and extensive collections and experience lets just agree that on this topic, we almost completely disagree..... and there is nothing wrong with that; Kato Is a valued supplier to this hobby, as are all who dare to enter the lions den.....

[CBQ Fan]

Pete,

I have found Kato passenger units to be bullet proof in operation. Ever since the original bookshelf couplers were improved they couple nicely, stay coupled and the cars run true. FVM cars once I trim the trip pins run just as well.  MT heavyweights run fantastically as well.  I have consistent issues with Rapido cars staying coupled and derailing when being shoved Onto tracks where none of the others do.  They also don't like to play well with other brands.  Rapidos look awesome and I continue to buy their cars when the road names are right. I have a bunch of baggage cars on pre-order now.  I still see an opportunity for Rapido with its public relations with the Nscale market that could improve their pre-order interest.  Centralia cars run better than Rapido but don't look near as nice. WOT cars are really good or really bad just depending on the road name.  NP looks really good. Burlington looks like an amateur did it.

[peteski]

Pete,

I have found Kato passenger units to be bullet proof in operation. Ever since the original bookshelf couplers were improved they couple nicely, stay coupled and the cars run true. FVM cars once I trim the trip pins run just as well.  MT heavyweights run fantastically as well.  I have consistent issues with Rapido cars staying coupled and derailing when being shoved Onto tracks where none of the others do.  They also don't like to play well with other brands.  Rapidos look awesome and I continue to buy their cars when the road names are right. I have a bunch of baggage cars on pre-order now.  I still see an opportunity for Rapido with its public relations with the Nscale market that could improve their pre-order interest.  Centralia cars run better than Rapido but don't look near as nice. WOT cars are really good or really bad just depending on the road name.  NP looks really good. Burlington looks like an amateur did it.

I guess we all have different perceptions of various model manufacturers and their models.

While I do like a lot of things about Kato's models, I think their couplers (old and new) really suck are very poorly designed.  Lots if unscheduled uncouplings (on passenger cars which is pretty much the only non-powered Kato rolling stock I own). I can easily replicate the problem. At the last Springfield show I gave a demonstration of the problem to the Kato rep. (the Asian gentleman whose name I don't recall). I showed him how easily Kato couplers can uncouple under certain conditions and how similar trucks with MT couplers never uncoupler under the same conditions.  He seemed really interested and surprised. He took his smart phone and took photos and video of my demonstration. He said he will pass this to their engineering.

[John]

Not quite