Author Topic: SPF help needed: 1925 depot paint scheme  (Read 3060 times)

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randgust

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SPF help needed: 1925 depot paint scheme
« on: March 09, 2016, 07:32:07 AM »
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OK, so this is off the beaten path.  PRR Salamanca Branch (Oil City PA-Olean NY); West Hickory, PA, 1925



So, what's your best guess as to proper paint color and recommended colors to use?

There's one other shot of the front in Triumph VII, but by this time (1964) no paint was left.

This was a former OCARR/AVRR/WNYP depot until the PRR absorbed WNYP completely by 1920.  But it still looks like a pretty standard PRR scheme to me.   And if by some chance, somebody else stumbles on shots of this area, I'm looking.

I'm doing a T-Trak module of West Hickory (that's where the Hickory Valley RR interchanged with PRR), will probably scratchbuild this.

Lemosteam

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Re: SPF help needed: 1925 depot paint scheme
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2016, 08:06:58 AM »
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I have suggestions for my PRRtool shed kit here, this is based on PRRTHS info which for the eara shown are based on Munsell color definition at www.munsell.com:



If the image is too small to read:

https://images1.sw-cdn.net/comment/picture/original_162390_116992_1452168393.png
« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 08:10:52 AM by Lemosteam »

randgust

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Re: SPF help needed: 1925 depot paint scheme
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2016, 09:47:03 AM »
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Wow.  So I'm back looking at the only period one I think might be close  - Strasburg's restored "J" tower.   Here it looks like the yellowish depot buff:

http://www.trainweb.org/railpix/stations/DCP_3602-J1-6-01-02.jpg

And here it looks a lot more like that light gray, at least the roof brown and window sashes are consistent:
http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/data/Ensign/2013105145434_PA112231.jpg

But if I look on Google Earth streetview it looks depot buff still.   I'm so confused.... I guess I thought the depot buff was a later standard scheme?  I certainly can't tell even when I'm looking at the same building on the same spot in color.

I'm thinking the gray is the way to go here, as this was anything but the 'main line'.  I remember the next station up the line as a kid, and what paint still survived on it by the 60's was gray.    This line lost passenger service entirely by about WWII, when my dad rode on it daily in 1927-28 it was a doodlebug one year and a D16 4-4-0 and two cars the other.   

As a sideline, the Dimi-trains PRR tower is based on two towers on this line, IRV at Irvineton (junction with the Philadelphia & Erie) and OTTS at Warren (also the junction with Philadelphia & Erie).

The masonry stations on the line at Irvineton and Warren were a buff-colored brick that wasn't painted, but what paint was still on the windows was dark brown.  That Irvineton building survived until about 1980 - it was almost identical in design to Bellefonte, just yellowish brick.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 10:11:19 AM by randgust »

Lemosteam

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Re: SPF help needed: 1925 depot paint scheme
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2016, 09:55:48 AM »
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Wow.  So I'm back looking at the only period one I think might be close  - Strasburg's restored "J" tower.   Here it looks like the yellowish depot buff:

http://www.trainweb.org/railpix/stations/DCP_3602-J1-6-01-02.jpg

And here it looks a lot more like that light gray, at least the roof brown and window sashes are consistent:
http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/data/Ensign/2013105145434_PA112231.jpg

But if I look on Google Earth streetview it looks depot buff still.   I'm so confused.... I guess I thought the depot buff was a later standard scheme?  I certainly can't tell even when I'm looking at the same building on the same spot in color.

Discovered same, but many folks told me those tower colors might not have been to the spec, and @Dave Vollmer has mentioned he also varies the color to his liking, so my document merely attempts to support the documented colors from the PRRTHS.

I'm sure like with anything there were color variation due to mix ratio, weathering, etc.

@chicken45 and I went round and round last year about the Gallizin station colors (the color pics I have make it look gray, but he and others have convinced me otherwise, unless PC was meddling...)

chicken45

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Re: SPF help needed: 1925 depot paint scheme
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2016, 10:46:04 AM »
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Discovered same, but many folks told me those tower colors might not have been to the spec, and @Dave Vollmer has mentioned he also varies the color to his liking, so my document merely attempts to support the documented colors from the PRRTHS.

I'm sure like with anything there were color variation due to mix ratio, weathering, etc.

@chicken45 and I went round and round last year about the Gallitzin station colors (the color pics I have make it look gray, but he and others have convinced me otherwise, unless PC was meddling...)

The book said Gallitzin Depot was "long gone" in 1965. It also has color pictures from 1957.
I think J looks pretty yellow to my eye. I remember Keystone crossings recommended Roof Brown and Ages Concrete.
Note ALTO over here on the left was painted with roof brown and aged concrete:


However, as ALTO origionally looked when it was constructed was much more ornate. It was red, green, brown...check out the "as built" pic from NSA:
http://thenarch.com/products/alto-tower-n#
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Re: SPF help needed: 1925 depot paint scheme
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2016, 02:42:33 PM »
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I'm still somewhat torn by the 'who's going to know' devil on my shoulder.   I really like that depot buff color, and the good part about that is that virtually anybody that looks at it that knows anything will recognize it as a PRR scene even without PRR equipment all over it, and that's one of the goals as a module.   But the other goal is to try to be historically accurate wherever I can, and a light gray with brown trim and maroon sash windows would look pretty good on that particular structure.    The irony is, of course, that PRR quit painting everything up here just about the time color film was invented.   The main line may have gotten some post-depression coverage, but this never did. 

I'm one of the guys that gets a whole lot more hung up on color than on detail; nobody can tell you if the windows were 6x4 or 6x3, but they will remember the impression the building left, and a lot of that is based on the right color.   I remember that my mother couldn't remember any detail at all about the W&D Endeavor sawmill that she grew up directly across from, but when it came time to paint the model, she was just an excellent critic until I got it finally weathered heavily enough.  i.e. color matters a lot.   She'd look at the model and say 'still not dirty enough, keep trying'.... and when I got it right, yeah, it looked right to her and everybody else since that's seen it, even if it is selectively compressed.

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Re: SPF help needed: 1925 depot paint scheme
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2016, 04:11:59 PM »
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REmember in 1925, the PRR ROW and structures were kept IMMACULATE so I would expect clean, clean clean.

Similar station, looks like I would expect it to.



And a tower postcard:



Hunt tower:


Shore tower:

Angus Shops

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Re: SPF help needed: 1925 depot paint scheme
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2016, 09:14:17 PM »
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Old handtinted postcards can be misleading. They were tinted by the photographer for his own purposes (such as adding a brilliant sunset to improve sales) and should not be considered historically accurate. On the other hand if you can assume the photographer would have had no particular interest in altering the colour, them you can might also assume the colour is in the ballpark, at least within the limits of the photographer's skills. But lots of colourized postcards are known to have completely fanciful colour schemes.

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Re: SPF help needed: 1925 depot paint scheme
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2016, 10:46:29 PM »
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As with rolling stocks and locos, trying to get an exact color match to the 1:1 scale object is pretty much futile.  There are so many chances for the color to not be rendered correctly: the time of the day when the photo was taken, the film used and the age of the photo, the person who colorized a B/W photo, the printing process (if the photo is in a book), the color balance on your computer monitor, etc., etc.  Even if matching to a real paint chip which was used to paint the 1:1 object still wont give a very accurate model. After all, the paint on the 1:1 building could have faded quickly, and then there is the scale effect where the small model should be painted lighter shade of the color to appear as the 1:1 building viewed from a distance.

IMO, the bottom line is that if you paint the building using an approximate color, it will look fine. It is not like you are painting a buff-colored building brown or red.  Close enough is good enough.  :)
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Lemosteam

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Re: SPF help needed: 1925 depot paint scheme
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2016, 11:05:45 PM »
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That's why I recommended the Munsell colors on my kit.  Right from the historical society.

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Re: SPF help needed: 1925 depot paint scheme
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2016, 11:17:52 PM »
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That's why I recommended the Munsell colors on my kit.  Right from the historical society.

Without applying the scale-effect?  :trollface: ;)
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Re: SPF help needed: 1925 depot paint scheme
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2016, 10:29:11 AM »
+2
Ouch, it hurts to see J tower and the New Freedom buildings being used as references.

Beautiful as they are, J tower is painted to match the rest of Strasburg's structures (their art direction is on POINT), and the New Freedom station is actually new construction (built following the design of the original, but still).

chicken45

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Re: SPF help needed: 1925 depot paint scheme
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2016, 08:09:33 PM »
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Ouch, it hurts to see J tower and the New Freedom buildings being used as references.

Beautiful as they are, J tower is painted to match the rest of Strasburg's structures (their art direction is on POINT), and the New Freedom station is actually new construction (built following the design of the original, but still).

Ha! I KNEW J looked too yellow!
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Re: SPF help needed: 1925 depot paint scheme
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2016, 09:14:50 PM »
+1
Ouch, it hurts to see J tower and the New Freedom buildings being used as references.

Beautiful as they are, J tower is painted to match the rest of Strasburg's structures (their art direction is on POINT), and the New Freedom station is actually new construction (built following the design of the original, but still).

I disagree on J...  The Strasburg generally uses Reading colors (based on the depot which was the RDG's East Petersburg depot) and variations thereof. 



J Tower OTOH is painted in PRR colors:



Reading used a much more pale cream for walls versus a darker tan/buff on the PRR.

I do agree on the New Freedom station being too yellow.

A decent reconstruction was done on the PRR's Yellow Springs, OH depot (near Dayton):



I don't think J tower is that far off:

« Last Edit: March 10, 2016, 09:18:31 PM by Dave Vollmer »
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randgust

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Re: SPF help needed: 1925 depot paint scheme
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2016, 09:11:26 AM »
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I was looking at these and trying to decide 'where have I seen that color before....'

When it comes to structures, I'm a big fan of the various cream acrylics available in Michaels; all kinds of colors that aren't railroad paints but are wide-spectrum for subtle color variance, easy to use, flat, and available.    I've used a lot of them.   My Winslow depot is all Michaels, for both the walls and the brick-colored roof, as well as what is known as "Colter Blue", for Mary Colter, the architect:   http://www.randgust.com/F7_Winslow_3.jpg      That sand color is looking pretty darn close, I'll have to test it.

I think the old Floquil 'depot buff' is too both yellow and too dark.   The color I'm using on the Winslow depots - sort of a light sand color - looks a lot closer to what may be right but may want to lean a little yellow.  Anyway, the next trip to Michaels I'll get an assortment and do some swatches.   Until I do that on some sample siding in the right light, hard to say.  I'm definitely leaning toward the yellowish/sand buff, looking a little bit faded but not dirty, instead of the gray, simply because it will look more PRR than the gray, given that nobody will be able to prove me wrong at this point in history.   West Hickory was adjacent to huge piles of hemlock bark for the tannery, and the station was downwind of the tannery with the prevailing patterns down there.   Somehow I think the first impression of someone getting off the train in 1925 would not be "wow, the paint sure is faded on the station" but would be "good GOD what's that smell???!!"

I never realized that New Freedom was a reconstruction, I thought it was the original building.  Love it, but yeah, man, that's YELLOW.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2016, 09:18:52 AM by randgust »