Author Topic: Best Of Spokane, Portland and Seattle (SP&S) 0-6-0 Project  (Read 23233 times)

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mmagliaro

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Re: Spokane, Portland and Seattle (SP&S) 0-6-0 Project
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2015, 09:06:14 PM »
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I'm not saying that what you are doing is wrong (using another model for reference), but makes me wonder just how the brass manufacturers somehow came up with those hard to decipher details if they were using factory drawings and prototype photos.  Did they have access to the 1:1 locomotive?

I have wondered this for years.  Just exactly what magic source of prototype drawings do those guys have that I cannot find?
But I think I have found the answer, as time has gone by.

At least with respect to the NP, GN and SP&S, in Minneapolis, MN there is a vast collection of drawings and photographs of those 3 railroads' equipment and corporate correspondance.  You can get an inkling of what they have at their website.
Here's one example link:
http://www2.mnhs.org/library/findaids/01010.xml

But from speaking to folks who have been there, they have an enormous underground floor of this material, and the only way
you can really go through it is to go there and spend days and days (more like months) digging and reading.
Paul T Hobbs is one such great guy who has done this.  He has written some very fine books on SP&S equipment.
And he's put in the hard work of digging through caverns of material like that.

So I expect that any brass importer worth their salt would spend the money and time to do digging like that.

When I built my SP&S 4-6-2, I found drawings in the on-line records of the mnhs,
and for a fee, I was able to get someone there to scan the drawings and email them to me.  But I got lucky.
They happened to have one roll of microfilm cataloged and listed online that had the main erecting drawing.
But most of the stuff is not online.

And if you want to get all the sub-assembly drawings, you would just have to go and dig.
Remember, everything, like domes, headlight casings, truck sideframes, the cab, the cab fixtures... EVERYTHING, seems to
have separate detail drawings, if one had the time to dig and find them.

So... long winded as it is, I think that's the way the brass makers get their details.  I don't think they are "making it up."


Chris333

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Re: Spokane, Portland and Seattle (SP&S) 0-6-0 Project
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2015, 09:16:04 PM »
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I just searched to see what the "other" side looked like.

mmagliaro

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Re: Spokane, Portland and Seattle (SP&S) 0-6-0 Project
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2015, 09:22:57 PM »
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Yep, that's what I do Chris.

To follow up on the MNHS... get a load of this quote from their website:

"The Minnesota Historical Society has acquired over 6100 drawings for steam locomotives and tenders of the Great Northern Railway. Approximately 65 of these are erecting drawings (side or sectional views of complete locomotives). The rest are parts drawings..."

They put 260 of the drawings, mostly erecting (side-view) drawings into the microfilm that I could get access to and ask for scans.
If I want to see the other 6000-odd drawings, I would have to go there.

And that's just locomotive drawings of the GN.   When they talk about structures, track plans, or company correspondence,
they list it in terms of cubic feet

For example, the NP "corporate records" occupies 10,600 cubic feet.

That's about an entire football field covered 3 inches deep in documents.



Cajonpassfan

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Re: Spokane, Portland and Seattle (SP&S) 0-6-0 Project
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2015, 10:28:00 PM »
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Wow, that's quite a project Max, I'm in awe  :o
I'm not sure most people realize just how tiny this thing is...but I know if anyone can bring this off successfully, you can! Best, Otto

peteski

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Re: Spokane, Portland and Seattle (SP&S) 0-6-0 Project
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2015, 10:30:07 PM »
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Interesting info - thanks Max!
--- Peteski de Snarkski

mmagliaro

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Re: Spokane, Portland and Seattle (SP&S) 0-6-0 Project
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2015, 12:58:41 AM »
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Thank you, guys.
As you can imagine, this is going to be a long haul.  Starting from nothing and building it from the frame is going to take a while.
But I expect I can count on the Railwirians to poke me when I go astray in my thinking, design, or details.

I'm counting on it.   :)

----
Yes, an 0-6-0 in N Scale is pretty darn small.   Note that the whole frame in my drawing is only 2.17" long.
I have always thought that making small steam locos is much much harder than making large ones.
Heck, inside a big 4-8-4, you are positively swimming with room to put a motor, gears, weight, and so on.
In an 0-6-0, your back is against the wall. 
 

Lemosteam

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Re: Spokane, Portland and Seattle (SP&S) 0-6-0 Project
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2015, 09:19:54 AM »
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Max, you might consider sandwiching lead between the frame halves for additional mass. As you may recall I did that with my experimental magnetized locomotive successfully by lining the inside of the frame with caption tape and by using 00-90 nylon screws into the lead.  You have the advantage of being able to mill the lead to the correct thickness. I had to sand mine by hand.  Lol.

Looking forward to each and every word and image you share during this process.

draskouasshat

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Re: Spokane, Portland and Seattle (SP&S) 0-6-0 Project
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2015, 12:30:30 PM »
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Max, I wouldn't have even thought about going your route. There's honestly a better and much easier way of putting this together. The LL 0-8-0 is a 51" drivered mechanism. You could remove the motor and move it to the tender and lop off the last driver. You could then file the frame to slide the front driver forward to match the prototype. I think the mdc 2-8-0 boiler would be a good start for the boiler from the looks of it. On a side note, the mdc 2-8-0 would be another option for a decent starting point minus having to find an extra non-blind driver.

Adam Draskovich

wazzou

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Re: Spokane, Portland and Seattle (SP&S) 0-6-0 Project
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2015, 01:24:09 PM »
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Max, I wouldn't have even thought about going your route. There's honestly a better and much easier way of putting this together. The LL 0-8-0 is a 51" drivered mechanism. You could remove the motor and move it to the tender and lop off the last driver. You could then file the frame to slide the front driver forward to match the prototype. I think the mdc 2-8-0 boiler would be a good start for the boiler from the looks of it. On a side note, the mdc 2-8-0 would be another option for a decent starting point minus having to find an extra non-blind driver.

Adam Draskovich



I think that would be counter to his intent of building the locomotive from scratch.   ;)
Bryan

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peteski

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Re: Spokane, Portland and Seattle (SP&S) 0-6-0 Project
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2015, 01:41:44 PM »
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I think that would be counter to his intent of building the locomotive from scratch.   ;)

Exactly.  Max wants to scratch-build the entire model. That is why he even build the drivers from scratch.
--- Peteski de Snarkski

draskouasshat

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Re: Spokane, Portland and Seattle (SP&S) 0-6-0 Project
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2015, 03:12:39 PM »
-3
Whatever floats your boat I guess. I have too many locomotives to build and stretch for different wheel arrangements I guess. I can see doing this if the drivers and wheel arrangement weren't easily attainable from modifying other mechanisms, but they're out there. Not to mention they're mostly cad drawn and cnc machined good running mechanisms.

Have fun with it max. Not trying to train on your parade, I just have better things to do with my time lol

Adam Draskovich

mmagliaro

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Re: Spokane, Portland and Seattle (SP&S) 0-6-0 Project
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2015, 09:29:38 PM »
+1
Understood, Adam.  No hard feelings.

Building models is something I do in order to have good-running steam to play with on my layout.
But it is also something I do to explore, push, and test myself as a model builder.  And I can definitely say
that building these models has made me better able to repair other engines.  It is quite educational.

If I were trying to build a fleet and thinking about filling up a roster on a model railroad, then yes,
there is no way I'd be building an engine this way.

draskouasshat

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Re: Spokane, Portland and Seattle (SP&S) 0-6-0 Project
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2015, 10:59:10 PM »
-1
Understood, Adam.  No hard feelings.

Building models is something I do in order to have good-running steam to play with on my layout.
But it is also something I do to explore, push, and test myself as a model builder.  And I can definitely say
that building these models has made me better able to repair other engines.  It is quite educational.

If I were trying to build a fleet and thinking about filling up a roster on a model railroad, then yes,
there is no way I'd be building an engine this way.


I wish you the best of luck max. I'll keep an eye on this thread and maybe I can help you a bit.

Adam Draskovich

nkalanaga

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Re: Spokane, Portland and Seattle (SP&S) 0-6-0 Project
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2015, 12:33:46 AM »
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And the magazines all said, at least into the early 80s, that N scale would never be a "builder's scale".  When this locomotive is done you need to write a 10-part article for Model Railroader on how to build it, like they used to do in the 50s and 60s for scratchbuilt HO and O.
N Kalanaga
Be well

garethashenden

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Re: Spokane, Portland and Seattle (SP&S) 0-6-0 Project
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2015, 09:32:16 AM »
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How are you planning on making the frames and connecting rods? More importantly, how are you planning on ensuring they are the same? The spacing needs to be spot on on all four parts, otherwise you'll have problems.

There's a 2mm case study on RMweb at the moment by one of the great locomotive builders, that may give you some ideas. Starts on post 1018: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/65499-whats-on-your-2mm-work-bench/page-41