Author Topic: Conventional rosin core vs silver bearing solder strength?  (Read 3811 times)

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mmagliaro

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Conventional rosin core vs silver bearing solder strength?
« on: September 11, 2015, 07:10:28 PM »
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I am embarking on the task of soldering some spokes into those steam loco wheels I'm making.

I did some tests on scraps of brass with conventional solder vs "silver bearing" solder (NOT "SILVER SOLDER"...
this is just "silver bearing" that is listed as having 2% silver)

Does silver bearing solder make stronger joints?  It seems like it does when I just solder two pieces in a "T" and wiggle them to
try to break the joint.

I am also going to use a liquid zinc chloride based acid flux for this.  Yeah, I know.  Corrosion.  But it should not be too
hard to clean the whole wheel in hot soapy water with a brush and then rinse it so there will be no flux residue.
The speed at which it flows the solder and makes the joint is worth it.

I welcome your ideas and suggestions.  (You can tape them to the back of a Steinway 6'9" model "B" and mail to...)

peteski

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Re: Conventional rosin core vs silver bearing solder strength?
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2015, 09:14:30 PM »
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I use silver bearing solder where I need strength and also when I need to solder  parts in multiple passes where I need to use solders with multiple melting temps. Silver bearing solder has higher melting point than standard 60/40 solder for electronics, which has higher melting temperature than Tix soft solder.

I never conducted any strength tests - I simply trusted the the description on the silver bearing solder's packaging.

As far as using zinc chloride as flux, that should not cause problems. It is quite active and makes soldering much easier.  Like you said, if there is way that it can be washed off parts which will be used in electrically-active assembly then it should be fine.  If you really want to be sure that any of the acidity is removed and neutralize it using baking soda (not baking powder).  At least that is what I read on http://chemicals.etacude.com/z/zinc_chloride.php

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mmagliaro

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Re: Conventional rosin core vs silver bearing solder strength?
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2015, 11:22:04 PM »
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Thanks Pete
I've read about the baking soda to neutralize it.  But along with that technique usually comes the caution to
remember that neutralizing it won't protect you forever if you don't wash all the flux residue out of there.
It will eventually start to cause corrosion.

Most "web expertise" seems to advise hot water, since the stuff is water soluable, some detergent, maybe
a follow-up with alcohol.  Fortunately, on a spoked wheel, it's pretty easy to just dunk, swish, brush it with a toothbrush,
etc.   

Yeah, that acid flux is pretty amazing stuff.   Just a drop, just one quick touch of the iron, and BAM, smooth, watery,
tight solder joint.  It's just what I need because these joints need to be strong, and not too messy.  Even though
I'm doing them from the backside of the wheel, I don't want a massive filing clean-up job after the soldering is done.






peteski

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Re: Conventional rosin core vs silver bearing solder strength?
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2015, 01:52:28 AM »
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Thanks Pete
I've read about the baking soda to neutralize it.  But along with that technique usually comes the caution to
remember that neutralizing it won't protect you forever if you don't wash all the flux residue out of there.
It will eventually start to cause corrosion.

Um, use a solution of baking soda in water (not just sprinkling the powder on the item which has flux on it.  :)  Then you don't need detergent, but I would still rinse the item in acetone, lacquer thinner, or naphtha to degrease it before painting.  Between the two rinses, all the flux should be gone.
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robert3985

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Re: Conventional rosin core vs silver bearing solder strength?
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2015, 03:23:51 AM »
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For ALL of my brass scratchbuilding, using either a torch, an iron or my resistance soldering station, I use Supersafe, Superior No. 30 Soldering Flux (gel) available from H & N Electronics here: http://www.ccis.com/home/hn/

It is the best thing that ever happened to my model soldering and it makes a HUGE difference in both the ease of soldering, and in clean-up...and also in the permanency of the joint...meaning ZERO corrosion after decades of being under paint.

Back in the 80's I started building my turnouts by hand, and doing a lot of engine mods on brass imports.  I tried the traditional methods, meaning what I could buy at Ernst's (remember them?) and although there were several acid fluxes that worked GREAT in getting the parts to stick together and the solder to flow under minimal heat, I learned the hard way that even after washing my constructions in hot water, neutralizing with baking soda...that after a year or so, the joints started to corrode, and bubble up through the paint.

The problem is, especially with complex, layered assemblies that rinsing doesn't get it all.  Yeah, Plumber's Honey (acidic flux) works great on copper pipes for soldering your toilet water supply line together, since water is continually washing it, but for model work, it turns into a nightmare, with lots of hard, precise work becoming ugly and useless over a bit of time.

Now, the vast majority of my soldering is for making turnouts, with the occasional detail part soldered together or stuck on a brass carbody or boiler.  Supersafe Superior No. 30 self-neutralizing flux makes these operations exponentially easier than they were before.  On some parts, I have not been able to rinse them, such as turnout repairs on the layout...and even after years, there is no sign of any corrosion.

Everybody I know who tries this flux says the same thing I do, and it becomes a main-stay of their modeling solder work.

As to types of solder...there's a huge difference between plain old lead solder and alloyed solders as far as strength is concerned. Also, solders melt at different temps, so if you solder with high temp silver-bearing solders first, you can add more details by using a lower temp solder for attaching them.

An excellent, well accepted and widely used low-temp solder is Tix solder, which is not silver bearing, but an iridium/tin/lead...and a few other metals...alloy.  It melts at 275 degrees and is advertised as "the strongest soft solder in the world" with a strength of "4300 psi" whatever that means.

I also use H & N Electronic's 96/4 Tin/Silver solder, which melts around 460 degrees, and is advertised as being "five times" stronger than tin/lead solders...using both Tix and H & N's allows layering because of their much different melting temps.

Although Tix makes a good flux too, and is in use widely by the jewelry trade, I still use Supersafe Superior No. 30 for my model work.

On many of my brass models, I don't drill holes and insert grab irons into them...then solder.  I use my American Beauty resistance soldering station to both hold and heat pre-bent and tinned grabs (with flattened ends) and solder them directly to the brass car sides or boilers.  I have never had one break off yet using either the Tix or H & N siver bearing solders, and to my eye, they also look much more prototypical.

So, yup...if you're concerned about strength, I'd opt for the H & N or Tix solders, and flux 'em with Supersafe Superior No. 30.  Using both gives a lot more versatility in assembling your brass pieces too.

Lastly, complex soldering of models composed of varying thicknesses of metals is a LOT easier with a high-quality resistance soldering station, with the "tweezer" and "probe" handpieces minimally.  IMO American Beauty makes the best, and sometimes they're on sale at Micro Mark.  The two features that make them light-years more advanced than either a torch or iron is that (1) you can hold the pieces together with the same instrument that supplies the heat...and you can (2) instantly back off the heat as soon as you see the solder flow by lifting off the foot pedal...and continuing to hold your assembly together for a few seconds until the solder solidifies with either the tweezer or graphite probe.

Good luck!

Bob Gilmore




mmagliaro

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Re: Conventional rosin core vs silver bearing solder strength?
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2015, 05:15:07 AM »
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I'll say this... I went back and tested soldering two strips of brass together in a "T" shape using
regular rosin core electronics solder vs the 2% silver bearing.  There is no doubt.  The silver bearing stuff makes
a much much harder, stronger joint.   Bending the "T" with conventional solder isn't hard, and it will break off after a few
bends back and forth.  With 2% silver bearing, it is quite hard to even bend the joint.  The brass bends before the
joint will give.

As to the flux, I hear you Bob.   This is a pretty open assembly I'm building... soldering spokes in a wheel.  When I'm done, I plan
to boil the wheels gently in water just to be certain that there is no way any residue could be left from the flux.
The spec sheet on that Supersafe 30 says that for delicate work or electronics, you still have to be sure to wash
the assembly in hot water to remove any residue to avoid future corrosion.   It may not be as critical as with
the zinc oxide based fluxes, but apparently, the danger is still there.




robert3985

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Re: Conventional rosin core vs silver bearing solder strength?
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2015, 05:59:32 AM »
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I'll say this... I went back and tested soldering two strips of brass together in a "T" shape using
regular rosin core electronics solder vs the 2% silver bearing.  There is no doubt.  The silver bearing stuff makes
a much much harder, stronger joint.   Bending the "T" with conventional solder isn't hard, and it will break off after a few
bends back and forth.  With 2% silver bearing, it is quite hard to even bend the joint.  The brass bends before the
joint will give.

As to the flux, I hear you Bob.   This is a pretty open assembly I'm building... soldering spokes in a wheel.  When I'm done, I plan
to boil the wheels gently in water just to be certain that there is no way any residue could be left from the flux.
The spec sheet on that Supersafe 30 says that for delicate work or electronics, you still have to be sure to wash
the assembly in hot water to remove any residue to avoid future corrosion.   It may not be as critical as with
the zinc oxide based fluxes, but apparently, the danger is still there.

I hear ya, and I agree.  Ideally, it's ALWAYS preferable to wash your finished soldered brass assemblies (which I do except in repairing in-place PCB turnouts on my layout)...even with Supersafe flux, but...and this is a big "but"...as opposed to other fluxes, I have never ever had a problem with Supersafe, and since my models that go to customers are guaranteed to be "museum quality"...I want to make sure that I never have a problem with corrosion ruining the customer's model and my reputation. 

Although lack of corrosion is important, what is equally important is how your part goes together, and that is the other plus of Supersafe...it works better than anything else I've tried.

Just sayin'...

Bob Gilmore

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Re: Conventional rosin core vs silver bearing solder strength?
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2015, 11:07:30 AM »
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I'll give a nod to Bob's response.
Thumbs up to the H&N product line...  never looked back and its got to be over 20 years for me.
Silver bearing solder is all I use on my handlaid track... strong stuff.  Earliest round of turnout installs are over 15 years old with rock solid stability.
MRing is fun with the right tools and equip!
Jeff
http://espeeoregondivision.blogspot.com/