Atlas S4 in N scale?

[pjm20]

What N scale really needs is an Alco PA...

Ha! It needs a K4!

[peteski]

From S4 we have came around to K4 - they are both fours - we have come a complete circle!  It was just a matter of time . . . 

[delamaize]

What N scale really needs is an Alco PA...

There is a lot of PAs out there already......

[sizemore]

I enjoyed reading about the fruit salad - nice!  How then you explain the almost simultaneous releases of some of the various F-units by multiple manufacturers?

Easy Kato sells their highly selective blueberries and ligonberries once maybe twice a year in a select market, while Intermountain sells their blueberries and ligonberries year round in every other market. The market is much greater for blueberries and ligonberries.


The S.

[bbussey]

You're comparing an apple (the FA2) to an orange (the FA1). The current argument is that Atlas should produce raspberries (the S4), even though Bachmann is already in the raspberry business (its S4). This has nothing to do with Bryan liking raspberries. This has everything to do with what is the best decision for Atlas in the fruit business. Everyone is arguing that because Atlas makes the best damn blackberries (the S2) in town, they should get into the raspberry business. Is it logical for Atlas to get into the raspberry business because they can make a slightly better raspberry? Is there really a benefit FOR ATLAS to get into the raspberry market, when they'd be in direct competition with Bachmann? As Puddington has already stated, C.R.E.A.M. (look it up!). And honestly it doesnt make sense, when Bachmanns raspberries are good enough for Grandmas raspberry pie. Why would Grandma pay more for raspberries when they taste the same? Is every Grandma on the planet going to pay more money for little benefit in taste? Probably not when they can get Bachmanns raspberries that taste good enough.

Its much more logical for Atlas to produce dewberries (the S1), or mulberries (the S5/6). Sharing the marketspace with Bachmann and they both win (to a degree) on the grocers shelves.

The S.

BINGO.

[bbussey]

I have to disagree about this.

It might be if you think of model as "locomotive" but not "locomotive + paint scheme".

Bachmann has this horrible habit of doing a handful of paint schemes on a model, with very few road numbers, and then not much else.

How many variations of the 44 tonner have there been? If Atlas had done them, they might be onto their third release of industry lettered ones by now.

That's a good thing!

Case in point: Atlas did the SD24. There weren't many paint schemes on them, but Atlas has pretty much done all of them (including the short lived MMID scheme). Because the MMID scheme was available, I bought them. Did I care enough about MMID SD24s to ever paint my own? Nope. But Atlas created some demand that didn't exist before, and then filled it (and their own coffers with some of my money that might've otherwise gone toward a bottle of Makers Mark).

Lots of purchases are like that.

I probably wouldn't have painted my own Reading GP7, or GP30, but because Atlas made them in that paint scheme, I bought some. Doesn't matter that Bachmann did a GP7, it's not in paint schemes that would make me a buyer, but Atlas had schemes, and I therefore bought them.

That doesn't mean I'm not a modeler (I've since done some work to all aforementioned engines), but I'd be less of one if I didn't have these raw materials to start from.

Nope.  You have the skill and ability to paint a Bachmann S4 in any scheme you wish, with the "raw material" being in this case the aforementioned S4.

There is no sound business reason for duplicating a topical model still on the market.  In most cases, the sales of either one or both of the models will suffer, and there are numerous recent examples to support this.  Look at the numerous BLMA/ExactRail head-to-head releases.  Athearn and MTL with the bay window caboose.  The only relatively recent head-to-head where neither party noticeably suffered was with the InterMountain/MTL FTs.

[MichaelWinicki]

Nope.  You have the skill and ability to paint a Bachmann S4 in any scheme you wish, with the "raw material" being in this case the aforementioned S4.

There is no sound business reason for duplicating a topical model still on the market.  In most cases, the sales of either one or both of the models will suffer, and there are numerous recent examples to support this.  Look at the numerous BLMA/ExactRail head-to-head releases.  Athearn and MTL with the bay window caboose.  The only relatively recent head-to-head where neither party noticeably suffered was with the InterMountain/MTL FTs.

I remember on the A-board, someone who worked within the model train industry, who stated that road-units far outsold switchers, which would seem to make building a switcher already being offered by another manufacturer even more risky.

[sirenwerks]

You're comparing an apple (the FA2) to an orange (the FA1). The current argument is that Atlas should produce raspberries (the S4), even though Bachmann is already in the raspberry business (its S4).

Tim, for some the S2 and S4 are different enough to be apples and oranges and the Bachmann S4 is not sweet enough for their taste. I'm well aware of the differences between the FAs, but the point was that some people might not care enough to warrant them support the production of the two via purchase but they don't go crying against the manufacture of two such similar (to them) units anyway.

[bbussey]

But your analogy was flawed, because your hypothetical FA1/FA2 example supposed that the FA1 did not exist and the FA2 is/isn't close enough to use as an FA1 stand-in.  A quality S4 model already exists, regardless of whether or not it meets some people's standards, so it makes no sense from a manufacturing standpoint to bring yet another model of the same prototype to market — particularly something as expensive to develop as a locomotive model.

[sirenwerks]

Quality is obvioulsy a subjective term.  The window treatment is a key element of the S4 cab and Bachmann did not do it justice.  There are certainly some, not just myself, who would say Bachmann's model, with its recessed square-cornered windows, is not "quality".  Not too mention some of us might want Atlas's quality sound installation in their S4 (another possible point of competition.)  Normally I would back you (I did pre-order an AC foob flat), Bryan, but this time I gotta say, get off your horse and accept that other's don't see your POV.  ESM doesn't have to, but maybe another manufacturer wants to hear public opinion.

[reinhardtjh]

Quality is obvioulsy a subjective term.  The window treatment is a key element of the S4 cab and Bachmann did not do it justice.  There are certainly some, not just myself, who would say Bachmann's model, with its recessed square-cornered windows, is not "quality".

That is a point and fairly reasonable, however, people have also remarked on the windows in the Atlas S2.  Maybe it's not as noticeable as the S4 window problem. Maybe it is.  Again it's a subjective thing as to if it's objectionable to any give person..

Not too mention some of us might want Atlas's quality sound installation in their S4 (another possible point of competition.)

In my inexpert opinion, this would be the big point in favor of Atlas doing an S4 ASAP.  No doubt, Bachmann could get a sound S4 produced if they wanted to and at some point they probably will.  But Atlas has a BIG head start on the sound issue in a small switcher.  Bachmann has no experience in that as of yet so if Atlas wanted to strike, this would be the time.  But the market would probably be only for those that want a decent sounding S4.  If you only want DC or silent DCC then the incentive to buy new is much less.  So Atlas has to determine if the market is big enough to do the small changes needed.  Or pass it by.

[Missaberoad]

There have been quite a few instances of duplication by multiple manufacturers. I disagree that as a rule they hurt one or both...
The Kato/IMRC F units are both popular, and the Atlas/Athearn airslides among others. The Bachmann S4 is in a different market and
alot of people who would buy an Atlas unit would stay away from it. (like the GP7/9)

That being said I think there would be more demand for a S1/S3, since I can make a stand in S4 from an atlas S2 relatively easily...

[reinhardtjh]

That being said I think there would be more demand for a S1/S3, since I can make a stand in S4 from an atlas S2 relatively easily...

S1! S1! S1! K4! oops.  sorry. 

[drgw0579]

Been doing a lot of surfing in Railpictures.net.  While the S4's seemed to have more variations over the production life than the S2, with the exception of the trucks, it seems the  big roads had the same characteristics as the S2.  Sure some S4's had sealed windows, but most PRR, UP, ATSF, and many others had the square corners.  Most had a stack like the S2.  Most had louvers on the doors like the S2.  If all Atlas did was change the trucks, they would cover many potential roads and be as accurate as most models on the market.

I don't care that Bachmann did the S4.  I would never buy one. 

I put a second S2 on reserve.  I can change the trucks by grafting other side frames.  Or maybe James will do a 3D set.  I'll have my S4 one way or another.  It will handle one of my switching areas.  Nothing I own sits on the shelf.

If Atlas does announce an S4, I'll get in line for one.  I  have another project in mind for the new S2.  It would be fun to kitbash other models from the chassis.  Would love to have a T6, but that's never going to happen

Bill Kepner

[bbussey]

Quality is obvioulsy a subjective term.  The window treatment is a key element of the S4 cab and Bachmann did not do it justice.  There are certainly some, not just myself, who would say Bachmann's model, with its recessed square-cornered windows, is not "quality".  Not too mention some of us might want Atlas's quality sound installation in their S4 (another possible point of competition.)  Normally I would back you (I did pre-order an AC foob flat), Bryan, but this time I gotta say, get off your horse and accept that other's don't see your POV.  ESM doesn't have to, but maybe another manufacturer wants to hear public opinion.

In your opinion.  It's not a matter of who is or isn't seeing "my" point of view.  I stated the reasons from the manufacturer's viewpoint as to why you won't see another S4 in the near future.  Pud also stated the reasons from the same viewpoint.  Paul basically gave a non-answer quip regarding the possibility.  My personal viewpoint is that it's not an issue as to whether or not another S4 appears.  I couldn't care any less.  If I wanted one, I would buy the Bachmann version and upgrade any details I felt needed correction.  If I wanted sound, I would put a sound-equipped decoder in.  If the wheel treads were too fat, I would change the wheels.  That's what I would do, rather than pining for a model that may never come.  Scott Lupia wrote an NSR article not too long ago that featured a modified Bachmann S4 and it looked outstanding. 

I can see the motivation behind wanting an Atlas S4 from the viewpoint of a modeler who just wants to take it out of the box and put it on the track.  I see it just fine.  What is disappointing is that many of the modelers who hold that POV can't understand or refuse to understand why it isn't feasible from the manufacturers POV.