Next Model Railroaing Tech Breakthrough...

[peteski]

Peteski:  Since we don't know what the battery would be made of, it may well be as heavy as a lead-acid one.  After all, none of today's batteries hold enough charge to make it worthwhile.  By the time one does become available, it may well be a "supercapacitor", rather than a battery, and the boiler shell could BE the energy storage system, instead of using a plastic casting.  More likely it would go in the tender, and since light weight is a feature of the supercapacitors, the tender would be the perfect place for it.

It seems that all the newest (and highest capacity) batteries/super-caps have rather light weight.  That is also very desired trait for most applications (you want the lightest possible batteries in your smart phone, electric car, or a flying RC model), I don't think it is realistic to expect that much research is being done in developing heavy batteries.  There just isn't a big enough market for them.  But then who knows what the scientists will eventually develop . . .

[tehachapifan]

Being that it seems really good, quality sound is difficult to attain in N scale (especially with the lower base sounds), how about a mobile sound decoder that provides the normal (higher pitched) sounds but also triggers some strategically-placed larger speakers under the layout that provide better base as it passes by. Seems that, in the real world, the low rumble of passing loco(s) tends to echo through the area without much motion and the higher-pitched sounds seem to move with the loco(s). I would imagine that one base speaker per, say, a canyon would give an amazing effect.

....waiting to have someone tell me this already exists or this idea is already out there. If not, remember you heard it here first!

[peteski]

Being that it seems really good, quality sound is difficult to attain in N scale (especially with the lower base sounds), how about a mobile sound decoder that provides the normal (higher pitched) sounds but also triggers some strategically-placed larger speakers under the layout that provide better base as it passes by. Seems that, in the real world, the low rumble of passing loco(s) tends to echo through the area without much motion and the higher-pitched sounds seem to move with the loco(s). I would imagine that one base speaker per, say, a canyon would give an amazing effect.

....waiting to have someone tell me this already exists or this idea is already out there. If not, remember you heard it here first!

It does exist, but that to me is besides the point.  Imagine if you will, this type of a sound system on a layout in a 20x20 room during an operating session where there are 4 or 5 trains running at the same time.  You would probably find the cacophony of deep bass sound so annoying that you would just drop your throttle and leave the room.  For the sound to be bearable in that (or any) situation.  After all why should a 4" locomotive generate gut-rumbling bass?

[tehachapifan]

It does exist (in the form I mention)? And who said "gut rumbling" bass? Can't it be a more subtle and scale-appropriate enhancement...for a typical home layout at that?

My current and only sound decoder (installed in a caboose....SP did a lot of local branchline and switching work with a caboose attached to the loco) sounds pretty darn good but a little more...a LITTLE more...sound in the lower registers would be nice. Baffles seem to only get you so far with the small speakers needed for N scale equipment....although my experience in that dept. is limited to scratch-building one baffle so far.

[Ken Rice]

Surroundtraxx.

The reason I keep turning sound off is not sound quality as in lack of bass, it's sound quality as in the sound doesn't do the right thing for diesels.  If you are doing a lot of switching with diesels and you've watched and listened to the real thing doing switching, you know that at best even the best of the current sound decoders just do a crude caricature of the sound.  First of all there's no change in the tone based on load - and engine running light in notch 2 sounds very different from an engine that's working hard to move a long cut in notch 2.  And second, you're stuck either with manual notching, or incorrect auto notching.  Which notch the throttle is in is only vaguely related to speed, it has much more to do with load.  So if I shove 20 cars into a siding and then run back out light at the same speed, on the way in I should hear a heavily loaded notch 3 or 4, on the way out it should be a lightly loaded notch 1 or maybe 2 sound.  And while I'm picking nits - a real engine can drop the engine rpms from notch 5 to idle pretty quickly, on all the current sound decoders I'm aware of you either get a very crude and jolting change, or you can a seemingly endless chain of notch to notch-1 sound transitions which last much longer than they should.

So, one of the tech breakthoughts I'm hoping for is proper diesel sound for switching.

My somewhat pessimistic opinion is that the percentage of the market that would even notice the difference is small enough that it's probably not worth the manufacturers time and money to solve the hard problems.  But I still hope.

[tehachapifan]

I forgot about the Soundtraxx system but, unless I'm missing something, it doesn't quite do what I'm talking about. I'm talking about an on-board sound decoder that provides (moving) sound in the higher registers and also talks to, and is in synchronization with, the nearest strategically-located, layout-mounted speakers that provide sound in lower registers as the loco passes by (that simulate more of a stationary, rumbling echo effect....subtly and scale-appropriate of course  ).

On the subject of scale-appropriate sound from an N scale loco, in my mind it should sound like a real loco that is the proper (scale) distance away or thereabouts. So, if I typically stand 2 feet away from the loco in a given area, it should sound like a real loco that I'm standing around 300 feet or so away from. It should not sound like a more miniature (mousy) version of the loco.

[peteski]

On the subject of scale-appropriate sound from an N scale loco, in my mind it should sound like a real loco that is the proper (scale) distance away or thereabouts. So, if I typically stand 2 feet away from the loco in a given area, it should sound like a real loco that I'm standing around 300 feet or so away from. It should not sound like a more miniature (mousy) version of the loco.

LOL!  Sound is a very subjective subject.    I also don't think that sound scales well.
There is no such thing as "mousy" low frequency rumbling.  Low frequencies will have to be louder than high frequency sounds in order to be heard.   That is the reason that the puny speakers cannot reproduce lower frequencies well. Have you ever seen a tiny (1") woofer which produces nice bass sound?  The small cone area and small distance it can move just cannot reproduce the low frequencies which require lots of air movement.

But even if there was a way to get the exact effect you are looking for, I would still like to see how you feel about that type of sound system when participating in an operating session at a home-size room with 5 or 6 sound models running at the same time (at multiple locations on the layout). I have a feeling that you would get tired of it rather quickly.    I suppose that being a lone-wolf modeler running a single train on a layout would make that kind of sound more acceptable.

[Ken Rice]

...
But even if there was a way to get the exact effect you are looking for, I would still like to see how you feel about that type of sound system when participating in an operating session at a home-size room with 5 or 6 sound models running at the same time (at multiple locations on the layout). I have a feeling that you would get tired of it rather quickly.    I suppose that being a lone-wolf modeler running a single train on a layout would make that kind of sound more acceptable.

A friend's layout I operate on regularly has a lot of sound.  This is a pretty good sized double deck HO railroad, with 3 or 4 yard crews and depending on the time and how things are going 2-5 road crews out, plus a branch line crew.  With a bunch of guys in the basement and a lot of sound, the volume the sound decoders are set to is critical.  If they're set low enough so you can only hear them from within a few feet it's in the OK to nice range.  If they're set louder it's in the annoying to I'm gonna throw that #%!* thing on the floor and stomp on it range.  The layout owner is very conscious of this uses a sound level meter to help set all the volumes uniformly low.

[SkipGear]

The one thing you can not scale with sound is distance. That is the only thing keeping sound from being "realistic" and it always will.

When you hear a real train, it is miles away, comes closer, passes and then leaves, miles away. You can't get the range of volume that happens in the real thing because you can never get far enough away from your model loco to not hear it unless the volume is down so low that it is unrealistic when close. A loud single loco is not bad up close but when it is on the other side of the layout, supposedly miles away and you can still hear it loud and clear, it ruins the whole effect.

[jagged ben]

The one thing you can not scale with sound is distance. That is the only thing keeping sound from being "realistic" and it always will.

This first sentence isn't really true, at least not with respect to volume.  The math of sound dissipation is not significantly different due to smaller scale (unlike other physical phenomena, such as friction, drag, and drawbar pull).

The real problem is that most sound decoders' factory volume defaults are ridiculously too loud.  A 'realistic' engine volume, where the decibel level at your ear is approximately the same as it would be at the comparable real world distance, is much softer than decoders come programmed.

It's true that there are some aspects of sound that don't scale.  The doppler effect is the most notable.  We'll never be able to do that one realistically with onboard sound. 

When you hear a real train, it is miles away, comes closer, passes and then leaves, miles away. You can't get the range of volume that happens in the real thing because you can never get far enough away from your model loco to not hear it unless the volume is down so low that it is unrealistic when close.

Well if you're standing trackside in the real world that would be equivalent to putting your ear a couple inches away from your model track.  Try that.  You may find that the lower volume isn't so unrealistic after all.   

One thing that's indeed not realistic is that we can't get both ears properly close to a locomotive at such distances.   So much for stereo.     

A loud single loco is not bad up close but when it is on the other side of the layout, supposedly miles away and you can still hear it loud and clear, it ruins the whole effect.

Indeed.  Program your sounds much quieter than they come from the factory.  Except the horn. 

[nkalanaga]

Ken Rice:  Sound based on load was done in the 60s, by an O scale modeler, in a steam tender.  He used an analog strain gauge, basically some springs and a rheostat if I remember right, connected top the rear coupler, to measure the load on the engine, then adjusted the sound accordingly.  I have no idea how it sounded, but apparently it worked.

The same could be done on N scale, theoretically, using solid-state strain gauges.  Today they're small enough to put on a chip, right along with the sound system, and the draft gear could be attached directly to the chip.  How much it would cost I have no idea, nor whether they're actually small enough for N yet, but the idea is sound.

Tony:  You're right, sound is affected by distance.  The lower the frequency, the further it carries.  Regardless of apparent volume, given identical sounds, the distant one will sound different from the close one. even if they're both stationary.  For N scale, given the apparent distance, based on the visual size of the model, we'd need more bass than a larger scale at the same actual distance, to sound "right".

[Ken Rice]

N Kalanaga: Now that you mention it I think I remember seeing that article a long time ago.  Soundtraxx steam decoders change the sound based on load now.  Apparently the simplest way to get load in a modern decoder is to measure the temperature of the driver chips, which can be done with another tiny chip.  Apparently the temp changes quite fast and corresponds to the load.
The only example I'm aware of of diesel sound decoders changing sound based on load was QSI's "sound of power" which was a very crude volume only change based on load with only about 4 steps.  It sounded very odd.

[rschaffter]

Wifi and DCC are not mutually exclusive.  DCC is a control system, while wifi is a communications system.  DCC commands can be sent over wifi just as easily as through rails, as long as there's a means of supplying power to the controlled device.  Batteries could do that, or an onboard generator, or solar cells.

Wifi DCC has been out for years from Lenz, although it controls the command station, not the locomotive directly...

http://lenzusa.com/1newsite1/iPhoneControl.html

RFID would be neat, especially if it could be incorporated into a throttle; to control a locomotive, simply scan it in with the throttle.  To consist, scan the locomotives to be set up, pushers too, and go....

[up1950s]

This first sentence isn't really true, at least not with respect to volume.  The math of sound dissipation is not significantly different due to smaller scale (unlike other physical phenomena, such as friction, drag, and drawbar pull).

The real problem is that most sound decoders' factory volume defaults are ridiculously too loud.  A 'realistic' engine volume, where the decibel level at your ear is approximately the same as it would be at the comparable real world distance, is much softer than decoders come programmed.

It's true that there are some aspects of sound that don't scale.  The doppler effect is the most notable.  We'll never be able to do that one realistically with onboard sound. 

Well if you're standing trackside in the real world that would be equivalent to putting your ear a couple inches away from your model track.  Try that.  You may find that the lower volume isn't so unrealistic after all.   

One thing that's indeed not realistic is that we can't get both ears properly close to a locomotive at such distances.   So much for stereo.     

Indeed.  Program your sounds much quieter than they come from the factory.  Except the horn.

We can't scale water .... known fact IIRC . With that in mind isn't air very very thin water and vice versa and could that be the reason dobbler isn't scaleable ?

[C855B]

Doppler isn't scalable because it is the effect of (real) speed on perceived frequency. It might be possible to simulate it assuming a fixed observation point, but the effect would be totally unnatural and wouldn't "fool" anyone.