ConCor/Kato SW1200/1500 Chassis Power Pickup

[tehachapifan]

Has anyone devised a way to improve the power pickup of the Con-Cor/Kato switcher chassis? These chassis employ a pre-axle cup design along with a really unusual truck design (by today's standards) and reliable power pickup can be an issue. I have tweaked mine to the point that it runs nice and smooth but a constant source of pickup problems is when changing directions. About 50% of the time the loco will start moving but then suddenly stop, requiring a nudge to get going again. The trucks in these chassis are pretty loose and move quite a bit when changing directions. I believe it's during this repositioning of the trucks that the power connection between the trucks and chassis is often broken.

Today, in an effort to improve pickup, I tried adding an MT SW1500-like contact strip by screwing it to the chassis on both sides of the rear truck only (for now). I also adding a contact to the truck by slipping it between the sideframe and the (metal) truck assembly. I was disappointed to find that this did not improve anything at all. Anyone ever come up with a better solution? My go-to interim solution is to MU it to something else but I would like to run it by itself sometimes.

[Spades]

Russ

On the trainboard forum in the locomotive detail group, sp4009 had a number of builds (SP diesels of course) and I thought he did away with the pickup strip and was going to hard wire the trucks.  He never posted the hows but it sounded like a good idea. Doable?

Greg

[u18b]

Burnished metal:
-- bottom circles on the main frame where the truck towers go in.
-- truck frame where the wheels ride- inside circle and outside surface.

Absolutely clean trucks.

Replace the weight in the cab with Tungsten.

[tehachapifan]

Russ

On the trainboard forum in the locomotive detail group, sp4009 had a number of builds (SP diesels of course) and I thought he did away with the pickup strip and was going to hard wire the trucks.  He never posted the hows but it sounded like a good idea. Doable?

Greg

Thanks, Greg. Hardwiring would be a great solution but I'm not really sure how that could be accomplished on this chassis. I don't believe the metal that the trucks are made out of would lend itself to soldering, but it's certainly worth pondering some more.

Burnished metal:
-- bottom circles on the main frame where the truck towers go in.
-- truck frame where the wheels ride- inside circle and outside surface.

Absolutely clean trucks.

Replace the weight in the cab with Tungsten.

Thanks, Ron. I've done all you suggest a few times (minus adding Tungsten) after learning the hard way that you ABSOLUTELY CANNOT apply any oil to the gears on this model. Doing so, as you already know, will cause oil to eventually coat where the axles pass through the truck and affect conductivity. I suspect using a conducta-lube instead may bridge the two sides and cause a short, but I'm not positive. Therefore, I don't apply any lube to this chassis any more but I do clean and burnish the surfaces you mention on occasion.

Thanks!

[nkalanaga]

For hardwiring to the usual model alloys the best way I found, on MiniTrix F units, was to drill a hole just large enough for a piece of 1/32 brass rod, which may not be exactly 1/32 inch.

Press fit the rod into the hole, then solder the wire to the protruding portion, and cut off any excess.  Drilling a tapping a hole, then using a brass screw, is better, but most trucks don't have room for that, and drilling a hole all the way through some frames would take a while.  Tapping a blind hole is a good way to break a tap...

[peteski]

...after learning the hard way that you ABSOLUTELY CANNOT apply any oil to the gears on this model. Doing so, as you already know, will cause oil to eventually coat where the axles pass through the truck and affect conductivity. I suspect using a conducta-lube instead may bridge the two sides and cause a short, but I'm not positive. Therefore, I don't apply any lube to this chassis any more but I do clean and burnish the surfaces you mention on occasion.

Thanks!

Oil is not a problem.  The thin layer of oil on bare metal parts actually prevents oxidation.  Plus if you do not oil metal-to-metal bearing surfaces, they will wear down fairly quickly.  What could be problematic is the gunk that oil attracts. If your layout is fairly clean, this shouldn't be a problem.

I had (and still have) several of the old-construction Kato models (SW1200, RS-3, RS-11, GP9) and I kept them all oiled.  They ran fine.

Which conducta-lube are you talking about?

This one
T
The common misconception (due to it's name) is that this conducta-lube is conductive. It is not!  It is simply an oil which improves conductivity the way I described in the beginning of my post.

There are carbon, nickel or silver bearing greases which are actually conductive, but they aren't widely used in model RR.  The silver bearing one is the most conductive, but it is also quite pricey.
Like this one
http://cool-amp.com/

IMO, you might want to actually coat the burnished surfaces with oil to prevent oxidation.  Better yet, polish them like I did on the 44-tonner in this tread: https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=32605.0

[victor miranda]

in some testing with the drawbar of an old Atlas/RR  Pacific...

I painted neolube on both and let them dry.
that made no notable difference
(this is a test to see if I can get better over 'clean')

I added  a dot of bulb grease and got
eye opening slow speeds.

so.... clean, and use neolube and add some bulb grease....

victor

[tehachapifan]

For hardwiring to the usual model alloys the best way I found, on MiniTrix F units, was to drill a hole just large enough for a piece of 1/32 brass rod, which may not be exactly 1/32 inch.

Press fit the rod into the hole, then solder the wire to the protruding portion, and cut off any excess.  Drilling a tapping a hole, then using a brass screw, is better, but most trucks don't have room for that, and drilling a hole all the way through some frames would take a while.  Tapping a blind hole is a good way to break a tap...

Good tip!  Might have to give that a try. Thanks!

Oil is not a problem.  The thin layer of oil on bare metal parts actually prevents oxidation.  Plus if you do not oil metal-to-metal bearing surfaces, they will wear down fairly quickly.  What could be problematic is the gunk that oil attracts. If your layout is fairly clean, this shouldn't be a problem.

I had (and still have) several of the old-construction Kato models (SW1200, RS-3, RS-11, GP9) and I kept them all oiled.  They ran fine.

Which conducta-lube are you talking about?

This one
T
The common misconception (due to it's name) is that this conducta-lube is conductive. It is not!  It is simply an oil which improves conductivity the way I described in the beginning of my post.

There are carbon, nickel or silver bearing greases which are actually conductive, but they aren't widely used in model RR.  The silver bearing one is the most conductive, but it is also quite pricey.
Like this one
http://cool-amp.com/

IMO, you might want to actually coat the burnished surfaces with oil to prevent oxidation.  Better yet, polish them like I did on the 44-tonner in this tread: https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=32605.0

Thanks, Peteski! I guess I've been deathly afraid of applying any type of oil to this chassis after applying a small amount of gear lube (as I occasionally do on all my other models with no ill effects) and it immediately and negatively affected the electrical pickup dramatically (the design of these trucks allows the oil to migrate right into where the axles contact the truck and make electrical contact as there's no wheel to separate gear oil from electrical contact points like on newer locos). I spent an hour or two cleaning the parts completely (the trucks are a real pain to reassemble on this chassis!) and the loco runs good again, except for the need to nudge when changing directions. I worry about parts wearing down as you mention, but I'm apprehensive to apply anything again. That said, I do have a bottle of the Atlas Coducta-Lube Cleaner as in your pic above.  I also have a tube of graphite. What might that do?? Also, I have applied No-OX-ID to the contact surfaces between the trucks and frame in hopes to minimize oxidation, but I have not tried polishing the surfaces yet (curious if the metal used on this chassis will polish up to a gloss like you got).

in some testing with the drawbar of an old Atlas/RR  Pacific...

I painted neolube on both and let them dry.
that made no notable difference
(this is a test to see if I can get better over 'clean')

I added  a dot of bulb grease and got
eye opening slow speeds.

so.... clean, and use neolube and add some bulb grease....

victor

Thanks, Victor! I may have to get some Neolube that everyone keeps talking about.

...I still wonder if no amount of polishing, etc., will help with the changing direction problem if the truck shifting that occurs causes a brief mechanical separation of all conductive parts, in which case the hard-wiring option seems the only sure-fire solution. That or permanently attaching and MUing, say, a caboose modified to help with electrical pickup. SP did a lot of local switching jobs with a caboose coupled to the switcher, so this would be somewhat prototypical. I thought about putting a loco sound decoder in a caboose anyway, so maybe I can make it dual-purpose (that's a whole other topic of discussion!).

[victor miranda]

there is no doubt that a clean and polished electrical contact will conduct.
I use Micromark 3200 polishing pads when I can get it to the place to be polished.

in general I have found that kato Mikes pick-up much better is they have bulb grease in them.

the same is true with any contact I have tried it on.
it is not magical in that a roll of fuzz in the pickup will stop the contact from working.
my next test is neo-lube and bulb grease in an Atlas Diesel...
or a kato mike....  that will depend on a lot of other variables.

victor

[tehachapifan]

Thanks, Victor. I was just looking at bulb grease online and am finding info that says it's an insulator.

[randgust]

I went through the rather gruesome exercise of fitting one of those mechanisms to my resin SW1 shell.   Never again.

But I saw the same stuff and problems.   The Kato GP38-2 has the same issues.   Once it gets rolling, with the flywheels, it is OK but you can easily stall it at creep speed due to pickups.  The failure point is the contact between the 'truck half' and the frame half.   On my GP38 I fabricated tiny phosphor bronze wipers between the frame and the truck frame which helped a bit, but still aren't perfect.  It still will stall.

The awful part is that even the Rivarossi design (with those miserable pickup wipers tucked in the truck pivot) works better than this. 

I'd vote for conducta-lube - its done wonders to end-axle pickups in my light Kato critter chassis.  It works.

The other design problem with these is the slow speed gear reduction.   Bluntly, unless you've got a body shell you're really in love with, this baby is horribly obsolete in design and you can do a lot better now for a small EMD switcher for performance - LL, Kato, even Bachmann.

[peteski]

Thanks, Victor. I was just looking at bulb grease online and am finding info that says it's an insulator.

LOL, Bulb grease is back. 
I had a long discussion with Victor about the merits of using bulb grease instead of the lubricants designed for model locomotives. I never really found out what makes bulb grease superior.  Have a look:

http://forum.atlasrr.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=69729

[tehachapifan]

I went through the rather gruesome exercise of fitting one of those mechanisms to my resin SW1 shell.   Never again.

But I saw the same stuff and problems.   The Kato GP38-2 has the same issues.   Once it gets rolling, with the flywheels, it is OK but you can easily stall it at creep speed due to pickups.  The failure point is the contact between the 'truck half' and the frame half.   On my GP38 I fabricated tiny phosphor bronze wipers between the frame and the truck frame which helped a bit, but still aren't perfect.  It still will stall.

The awful part is that even the Rivarossi design (with those miserable pickup wipers tucked in the truck pivot) works better than this. 

I'd vote for conducta-lube - its done wonders to end-axle pickups in my light Kato critter chassis.  It works.

The other design problem with these is the slow speed gear reduction.   Bluntly, unless you've got a body shell you're really in love with, this baby is horribly obsolete in design and you can do a lot better now for a small EMD switcher for performance - LL, Kato, even Bachmann.

Thanks, Randgust! I also installed some brass wipers on one truck so far, as per my original post, that I don't think helped either. So, I will give some conducta-lube a try and will hold my breath! As far as having a shell I love that this drive is under, that is exactly the case and is the only drive that I'm aware of that can be modified to fit under my SW1500 kitbash with a scale-width hood....

[peteski]

Thanks, Peteski! I guess I've been deathly afraid of applying any type of oil to this chassis after applying a small amount of gear lube (as I occasionally do on all my other models with no ill effects) and it immediately and negatively affected the electrical pickup dramatically (the design of these trucks allows the oil to migrate right into where the axles contact the truck and make electrical contact as there's no wheel to separate gear oil from electrical contact points like on newer locos). I spent an hour or two cleaning the parts completely (the trucks are a real pain to reassemble on this chassis!) and the loco runs good again, except for the need to nudge when changing directions. I worry about parts wearing down as you mention, but I'm apprehensive to apply anything again. That said, I do have a bottle of the Atlas Coducta-Lube Cleaner as in your pic above.  I also have a tube of graphite. What might that do?? Also, I have applied No-OX-ID to the contact surfaces between the trucks and frame in hopes to minimize oxidation, but I have not tried polishing the surfaces yet (curious if the metal used on this chassis will polish up to a gloss like you got).

Russ, what makes you think that the low-friction trucks which use cone and pointed axle-end as a bearing/electrical pickup do not need to be lubricated?!  They do - just as much as any other metal-to-metal moving surface.  If you run those dry you will end up with a hole in the cone and worn out pointy axle. 

As I said, lubricants prevent metal from oxidizing (since they create a barrier between the metal and ambient air which contains oxygen). No oxidation on the metal surface means better electrical connectivity between the metal parts.  But if you use a heavier grease instead of light oil, the layer of heavy grease lubricant, especially if is is contaminated with solid particles (technical term: schmutz), might prevent the metal parts from making positive contact. Good as far as lubrication goes but not good for electric contact. Light oil is easily squeezed out as the perts make contact, allowing the metal surfaces to come together.  At least that is how I see this working.

You model's frame can be easily polished as well as how I got the 44-tonner done.  My polishing method was covered on the 2nd page of the thread I posted here earlier.

To polish the frame, I start of with a mill file (if needed), Then I move onto a 4-way emery board for fingernails (purchased in a beauty supply store)  I use Tropical Shine brand.




The final polishing is done using a Tob Brite polishing paste and a cloth buffing wheel chucked in a Dremel tool (runnign at slow speed).

[tehachapifan]

I guess all my experiences so far with adding lube to contact points has been less than ideal in that it always seemed to impede electrical contact to some degree, including in axle cups. I guess I've always chosen the wrong product, perhaps. I've never noticed worn cups or axle points before and everything else continues to run well. I may need to look a little closer at that though as the pic in that thread you linked is pretty spooky!