Where is the tipping point?

[delamaize]

My generic budget for freight is about $25 per car also. Although I feel better paying more for cars that are better detailed, or specialty cars.

The tipping point is glue.

Jason

Yup.

[Puddington]

The tipping point is glue.

Jason

Care to expand on this pithy offering....?

[CBQ Fan]

I don't like glue at all!

[wcfn100]

Care to expand on this pithy offering....?

If I can't get undecorated kits because everyone wants it's done for them, I at least need something I can strip down and start over with.  But with all the factory applied parts basically everything gets glued like window glazing or freight car roofs and bodies to floor, things that should not require it and make disassembly very difficult and prone to breaking something.  Even undecorated cars are coming glued together  .  Then there's the gluing leaking out between parts and glue finger prints that are the by-product of factory applied details.


Jason

[Wardie]

The tipping point is glue.

Jason

Undecorated models should never be glued together.

[wcfn100]

Undecorated models should never be glued together.

I should go back and say that in the case of the FMV MILW coaches, I don't believe they were supposed to be glued as Matt had replied in an email -

you will be able to take a standard coach apart easily

But that was not the case.

Jason

[bbussey]

You will end up paying more for undec cars, because A) new packaging will be required and B) it would take just as much labor if not more to pack the smaller parts in the new packaging.  And C) not enough undecs sell to justify the expense.  Unless you're an Atlas that has the larger production runs or a Micro-Trains that controls everything in-house.
 

[basementcalling]

Was at a show today and was thinking along these lines as I walked the aisles looking at offerings. If a car was over $20 I had to really "need" it to drop cash for it. $75 used to be a comfort level for a loco, but engines have blasted through that barrier on recent releases, especially with the added costs of DCC. Certainly quality steam has a different price point, but man do those new expensive steamers - FEF, Challenger, Cab Forward look impressive.

More detail isn't always better, especially if the main details can be easily added to the basic model by the more advanced skill set of hobbyists. Some of what the market "demands" right now isn't always obvious (underbody details come to mind). How hard is it for an SP modeler to add one of their headlight packages to a model instead of have the factory do it? Same with AC units or other rooftop details? Roofwalks on cars are an obvious detail, but do they all need to be etched brass on your fleet? Can you tell the difference between a "Trainman" quality plastic roofwalk on a hopper and the etched version on a Master Line offering when the train is in motion?  I get wanting lots of details on models that will be used for photography; heck, I like that too, but most of the added items turn invisible when the train starts moving.

Don't get me wrong, some of the new products are amazing, especially compared to where the scale was 25-30 years ago. Detail and running quality on rolling stock and motive power have lept forward, but have other aspects of layouts kept pace? Are building details about the same as they were back in the early days of N? What part of buildings has become more detailed or more to scale since DPM got brickwork mostly right? Should we want more prototypical offerings and better details on our structures?

Trees are much improved, as is ground cover, but some areas of scenery still lag behind state of the art. Instead of continued improvement in items with wheels, how about a similar increase in details in the permanent, stationary items that complete scenes?

[wcfn100]

You will end up paying more for undec cars, because A) new packaging will be required and B) it would take just as much labor if not more to pack the smaller parts in the new packaging.  And C) not enough undecs sell to justify the expense.  Unless you're an Atlas that has the larger production runs or a Micro-Trains that controls everything in-house.

You've made these comments before but it doesn't really seem to be an issue for other companies.  Train-worx undec gondolas (and PD3000s) are $3 cheaper and use the same box and the 85' flat cars are $6 cheaper and the 85' box cars are $9 cheaper as undecs (but without trucks and couplers - which I prefer anyways).  IM kits are much cheaper (but may or may not be complete we'll see).  Athearn undec air-slides were the same price as decorated and they came in two boxes.  FVM undec wagon top box cars are the same price as decorated and I assume are the same box.  I know there are more examples I can find.  Atlas doesn't use a different box with the new PS-1 and they have a ton of loose parts including 2 extra sets of doors (about the biggest loose parts you can have)

I can't think of an undec item that was offered at a higher retail price than decorated (and maybe if that was the case they wouldn't be offered, I don't know).


Jason

[Albert in N]

Sadly, many are like me.  Early on in my HO days, I would buy Uncle Irv's Athearn kits and even ready-to-roll diesels.  Then I would patiently add do-it-yourself constant lighting, Kadee couplers, number board decals, and detail kit items from the hobby shop.  Later N scale meant adding number board decals and Kadee (now MTL) couplers, plus other personal touches.  I liked Rock Island and MKT, which meant me custom painting and decaling N locomotives and rolling stock.  I even thought this was fun, as did friends in this hobby.  Now, my expectation of ready to roll includes factory directional lighting, lighted number board numbers, operating knuckle couplers, decent detailing, plus prototypical lettering and colors for my choice of railroad and historical era.  Yes, I purchased a MTL Southern Pacific bay window caboose, which had brass detail parts for me to add.  Once I saw the neat Athearn N SP bay window caboose with frog eye roof warning lights, handrails, smoke stack, and antennas already installed and painted, I bought it.  Then I traded off the MTL caboose with the brass detail part sheet still intact for the next buyer.  Maybe I am getting lazy like many of my fellow geezer friends.  I do not see detail parts and decals at hobby shows and shops much anymore.  Sure, I will pay more within reason for what I want.

[bbussey]

... Can you tell the difference between a "Trainman" quality plastic roofwalk on a hopper and the etched version on a Master Line offering when the train is in motion?  ...

Yes.  Very much so.  And on every other bodystyle that requires roofwalks.

[bbussey]

You've made these comments before but it doesn't really seem to be an issue for other companies.  Train-worx undec gondolas (and PD3000s) are $3 cheaper and use the same box and the 85' flat cars are $6 cheaper and the 85' box cars are $9 cheaper as undecs (but without trucks and couplers - which I prefer anyways).  IM kits are much cheaper (but may or may not be complete we'll see).  Athearn undec air-slides were the same price as decorated and they came in two boxes.  FVM undec wagon top box cars are the same price as decorated and I assume are the same box.  I know there are more examples I can find.  Atlas doesn't use a different box with the new PS-1 and they have a ton of loose parts including 2 extra sets of doors (about the biggest loose parts you can have)

I can't think of an undec item that was offered at a higher retail price than decorated (and maybe if that was the case they would be offered, I don't know).

The manufacturer may not be charging the customer more, and may be amortizing the cost across the entire release, but it costs more.  InterMountain is cheaper because that product isn't being shipped overseas to decorate.  Atlas doesn't use different packaging, but it costs more to pack those extra parts.  You may not be paying for that privilege specifically with each undec model you buy, but you are paying for it in part when you buy the decorated cars.

[wcfn100]

The manufacturer may not be charging the customer more, and may be amortizing the cost across the entire release, but it costs more.  InterMountain is cheaper because that product isn't being shipped overseas to decorate.  Atlas doesn't use different packaging, but it costs more to pack those extra parts.  You may not be paying for that privilege specifically with each undec model you buy, but you are paying for it in part when you buy the decorated cars.

I'm okay with that.   

Jason

[nkalanaga]

Dee:  Make banana bread.  Then freeze the loaves, and you can have it whenever you like.  Slightly over-ripe bananas work best anyway, so start with those that arrive over-ripe, eat the just-ripe ones, and as the rest ripen, make more bread from those you can't eat fast enough.

[mcjaco]

My tipping point now is time and enjoyment vs. prototype fidelity.

The Atlas GP15 was a model I ranted and raved about getting when I entered N about 12 years ago.  When Atlas made the announcement, I was ecstatic, until I found out it was the Farr Fiter version....dammit, I needed the Intertial Filter version! 

I didn't buy them for that very reason.  I finally got my hands on two of them a year ago, and decided it wasn't worth the aggravation.  I could sit in limbo the next twenty years waiting for someone to do them, or I could just do a "close enough" version in which my kids and I could enjoy them NOW. 

So with the addition of kids, I have multiple levels of models.  The ones I work very hard on getting 99% correct to the prototype, the ones that are around 75% (close enough), and the ones that I've added a few minor details to, to make them look the part. 

Life is short.  And at the end of the day, they're just toy trains.