Will Kato Hammer our wallets again?

[MichaelWinicki]

I'd spring for some PRR/PC SD40's, & SD45's... but I have my doubts that we'll be seeing those any time soon.

[nkalanaga]

Nate:  I knew that GE had made several proposals in the 60s for new locomotives, but not that they had designed an entire new electrification.  Think what the MILW could do with today's intermodal, coal, and oil trains.  Most of those would do best on a road that avoided cities, and their congestion, which would make the MILW's isolation an asset rather than a liability.  If they had done that, they should have also extended the wires to the NP/BN interchange near Miles City, allowing trains from the east to come in on both roads, then move over the MILW.  With both the NP and GN near capacity, the extra track would be very handy now.

Not wanting to get into a political discussion, but what if the federal government had put money into "strategic railroads" at the same time they built the Interstates?  Very handy if an enemy ever cut off our oil, as railroads can get a lot more mileage from diesel than trucks, and electrified railroads can run on almost any fuel handy.  The MILW found that out too late, in the 1973 oil embargo, which save the electrics for a year.

[BeastofTheEast]

N&W A class. Famous modern excursion locomotive. One of the all time greats of giant steam. 

[muktown128]

I'd spring for some PRR/PC SD40's, & SD45's... but I have my doubts that we'll be seeing those any time soon.

+1

I'd love to see more PRR SD40's.  They are among my best running diesels, even if the top speed is off the charts.  I'd also love to see Kato do PRR SD45's.  The Bachmann SD45 model doesn't look right to me.

Scott

[Albert in N]

I'll second more SD40 diesels.  My two SD-40s (one BN and new UP early) run great and speed seems to be slower (better).  Also, the Kato couplers were short shank and work surprisingly well, so did not bother to install MTL.  My new SP SD-45 runs too fast for my taste, but looks great.  The SD-45 couplers were long shank (as were my U-30Cs and C30-7) and did not work well, so replaced with MTLs.  Both the SD40 and SD45 have bright headlights that show well.  However the GE U-30C and C30-7) headlights seem too small and appear dim unless near 6 volts, which means 80+ scale miles per hour.  I am using MRC Tech4 direct current power.

[basementcalling]

...

greyhound scheme.... why do I want that?

victor

Do we need a reason to want that scheme? It's just plain beautiful.

Does Kato release product often enough to truly hurt the wallet?

Did manage to purchase mine despite the short run and shelf life. No pain no gain, as they say.

[victor miranda]

greyhound paint scheme is attractive...

I've been considering what Kato could do
and how painful it could be to me.

the PRR h8, and 9 and 10 class locos would worry me the most.
the real problem being that one more won't hurt.  I guess I could raise
funds by selling the many Mikes I have...

and Kato is very unlikely to make them.  I hope.

I am thinking there is a better chance that in a few years
they might do a Niagara...
which would not be as painful.


victor

[MichaelWinicki]

Not wanting to get into a political discussion, but what if the federal government had put money into "strategic railroads" at the same time they built the Interstates?  Very handy if an enemy ever cut off our oil, as railroads can get a lot more mileage from diesel than trucks, and electrified railroads can run on almost any fuel handy.  The MILW found that out too late, in the 1973 oil embargo, which save the electrics for a year.

Interesting thought.

The same has crossed my mind over the years.  And not just the interstates but the government poured tons of money into airports and air travel.

And why not the railroads?

I've read a lot on the topic and for various reasons, some good, some not, the relationship between the railroads and the government was strained at best. 

In the 1920's at least some in government foresaw the problems with the nation's rail system... too many route miles, decreasing passenger counts, too many duplicate lines, railroads losing LCL shipments to truck, increasing employee costs.

And the government began the campaign to "encourage" strong lines to merge with weak ones.  The railroads responded by having only one sorta-significant merger prior to 1959– nearly 4 decades after the government started to strongly suggest that the railroads start looking at things differently.  In other words if the government said the sky was "blue" the railroads would have said it was "red".

[nkalanaga]

Oh yes, I've always assumed there were valid reasons, on all sides, why the government didn't invest in railroads after WW II and Korea.  Another reason, and a good one, right or wrong, would be railroad mistrust of government "meddling" after the USRA period in WW I.  They could very well have feared that taxpayer money would be a prelude to nationalization, and decided that going it alone against the highway and airline industries was safer.  On the other hand, there was, and still is, resentment against the "handout" of land grants in the 1800s, although numerous studies show that the taxpayers more than got their money's worth from that.  And the railroads survived without such a program, even though the 60s and 70s were tough.  They seem to be in better shape than many of the Interstates today.  So it all worked out.

But it makes a nice dream.  That's partly how I justify MILW electrics on the branch that interchanges with my BN.  The Harlowton-Great Falls line was electrified to serve the Air Force base and missile sites in central Montana, and my branch was done at the same time, for whatever reason.  Possibly to help haul ore from the mines to smelters in Great Falls, more likely as a pork barrel project!

[MichaelWinicki]

Oh yes, I've always assumed there were valid reasons, on all sides, why the government didn't invest in railroads after WW II and Korea.  Another reason, and a good one, right or wrong, would be railroad mistrust of government "meddling" after the USRA period in WW I.  They could very well have feared that taxpayer money would be a prelude to nationalization, and decided that going it alone against the highway and airline industries was safer.  On the other hand, there was, and still is, resentment against the "handout" of land grants in the 1800s, although numerous studies show that the taxpayers more than got their money's worth from that.  And the railroads survived without such a program, even though the 60s and 70s were tough.  They seem to be in better shape than many of the Interstates today.  So it all worked out.

But it makes a nice dream.  That's partly how I justify MILW electrics on the branch that interchanges with my BN.  The Harlowton-Great Falls line was electrified to serve the Air Force base and missile sites in central Montana, and my branch was done at the same time, for whatever reason.  Possibly to help haul ore from the mines to smelters in Great Falls, more likely as a pork barrel project!

It is an interesting topic.

It could have gone a lot of different directions depending upon what would have happened along the way, especially if the railroads had accepted the governments recommendations in the 1920's and started the process of merging weak lines with strong ones.  I'm wondering if the government would have been more lenient when it came to setting rates and more importantly allowing roads to abandon (easily) unnecessary trackwork, which in real life proved to be problematic until Staggers.

In my view the "Conrail solution" could have been played at least a decade earlier... but again the railroads were so anti-government they weren't going to give up the fight until they could no longer do so.

The whole USRA thing is interesting and something I need to read more on.  For all the supposed damage the government did, it seems the railroads were in a nice era of prosperity during the 20's, except for passenger service, which was dying.

[nkalanaga]

I don't know that the USRA did that much lasting damage, it seems to have been more that the people they put in charge didn't know how to run the railroads efficiently.  Especially in the steam era, every railroad was different, and often individual divisions were different enough that what worked on one wouldn't on another.  Not just engines, but policies and practices as well.  The USRA tried to standardize everything, and it often made things worse instead of better.

Some mergers have had the same results, such as the PC in the 60s, and the UP takeover of the SP later, so it wasn't just a "government" problem.  The BN merger had a big advantage over the PC in that the GN and NP had been run by basically the same people for years, the CB&Q and SP&S were owned by them, and they'd all been working, off and on, towards a merger since the 20s.  Basically all they had to do was sign the papers, renegotiate a few union agreements, and renumber the locos.

[MichaelWinicki]

Good point about the BN merger.  Yep, those lines had much more stable management.  Plus they were simply more profitable than the PRR, NYC and NH.

The roads west of the Mississippi were in better shape for the most part (sans Milwaukee Road and Rock Island) than were their north eastern counterparts. 

The PRR had been bleeding money for a long time and deferred maintenance and really provided service that wasn't top-notch in order to funnel as much money as they could into the dividend. 

All the roads that were later part of Conrail could have been part of a 1966 Conrail.

[victor miranda]

wow.

I have some facts and opinions on the USRA...
I think a thread on the subject would be entertaining
both to read and write.

any chance Kato will do another USRA loco?
(any other outfit?)

victor

[nkalanaga]

MichaelWinicki:  Stable management, yes, but maybe I didn't word it quite right.  When I said "the same people" I meant that, in many cases, the same group of people were on the boards of both companies.  In fact, the GN and NP both had headquarters in St. Paul, in the same building. 

The way I heard the story was that this multi-story brick building was designed with a wall down the middle, GN on one side and NP on the other.  Openings for hallways were designed in, so that when they finally merged, the two offices could be as well.

On the other hand, the NYC and ORR had very different management styles, their operating divisions were organized differently, and apparently the two companies' people, top to bottom, simply didn't like each other.  Like trying to merge the stereotypical cats and dogs.

Victor:  Go for it!  It's railroad related, and should attract some interest in the Crew Lounge, or maybe even in Prototype Discussion, depending on the ratio of facts/opinions.

[Puddington]

Whilest I certainly appreciate the seemingly wonderful job Kato did on their FEF I have no need for one; indeed; Kato has produced little, if anything since their last release of SD45's that has even drawn my attention. Kato has a unique and introspective approach to product development and marketing and as long as it works of them them I'm happy to save my few modelling dollars for other products from other mfg's.