Author Topic: Need direction for installing signals  (Read 8624 times)

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davidgray1974

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Need direction for installing signals
« on: February 16, 2014, 09:49:31 PM »
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One thing I've always thought that makes a layout really look great, other than scenery and trains, are working signals.  My knowledge about signals pretty much stops with the idea that they control rail traffic and red means stop and green means clear ahead.  What I'm looking for is signal placement and what type, ie. single or double light should be used in certain areas.  Below is a copy of my track plan.  Also, if there is any literature anyone can direct me towards for a greater understanding of signals, this would be greatly appreciated as well.

Lastly, does anyone have any particular products they would recommend for setting up signals on their layout?



Thanks,

David

Modeling the L&N, well at least a few times a year.

Ian MacMillan

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Re: Need direction for installing signals
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2014, 09:52:01 PM »
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Really depends on what type and style of signaling you want to accomplish or mimic.

First thing would be to start here:
http://www.railroadsignals.us/
http://www.railroadsignals.us/basics/basics1.htm

Figure out what style you want, and then we can go from there.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 09:55:09 PM by Ian MacMillan »
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Bsklarski

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Re: Need direction for installing signals
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2014, 09:53:17 PM »
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How involved do you want to make it? I can see it being easy or hard. Not every switch needs a signal too, just the interlockings and a fixed approach to enter the yard.
Brian Sklarski
Engineer, New England Central Railroad

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Boston-Maine-Conn-River-Line/173358446076160

davidgray1974

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Re: Need direction for installing signals
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2014, 09:54:02 PM »
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Thanks for the link Ian.  For this layout, I want to use search light signals.

Modeling the L&N, well at least a few times a year.

davidgray1974

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Re: Need direction for installing signals
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2014, 09:56:28 PM »
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How involved do you want to make it? I can see it being easy or hard. Not every switch needs a signal too, just the interlockings and a fixed approach to enter the yard.
For the main part of the layout all the way to the yard entry I would like to keep it basic as you said, but I would like to keep it as close to realistic as possible.  If that makes sense.  As for the yard itself, I'm not looking to install any dwarf signals.

Modeling the L&N, well at least a few times a year.

Philip H

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Re: Need direction for installing signals
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2014, 10:11:19 PM »
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David,
If you want to use the search lights to control traffic semi-realistically you need 4 or five sets: one set for the yard lead, one set to the right of the mill complex, one set controlling the entrance of the CSX interchange and one set for the turn back before you get to the CSX interchange. You could do another one to the left of your town, but that could be part of your yard throat control.

How you drive all that is a different story, and one I'm not tech Davy enough to help with.
Philip H.
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Bsklarski

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Re: Need direction for installing signals
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2014, 10:17:07 PM »
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I would look at the RR you model and see what system they use first.
Brian Sklarski
Engineer, New England Central Railroad

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Boston-Maine-Conn-River-Line/173358446076160

Bsklarski

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Re: Need direction for installing signals
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2014, 10:31:13 PM »
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I would signal the interlockings I circled in red to make it easy, anything more, its going to be messy and your going to have to have a VERY complicated system. You can signal the reverse loop but the closeness of those switches to the interlockings will make it messy.

Brian Sklarski
Engineer, New England Central Railroad

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Boston-Maine-Conn-River-Line/173358446076160

Philip H

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Re: Need direction for installing signals
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2014, 08:25:11 AM »
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Those are the same ones I wAs trying to describe. :facepalm:
Philip H.
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Baton Rouge Southern RR - Mount Rainier Division.

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John

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Re: Need direction for installing signals
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2014, 08:30:28 AM »
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I would probably use 2 SE8Cs from digitrax .. and some of their SMBK signal heads to start .. you're looking at about $300 to start for what bsklarski circled .. which I think is pretty good start

tehachapifan

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Re: Need direction for installing signals
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2014, 11:44:46 AM »
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It's proper forum etiquette for at least one person to take a stab at really terrible comic relief when you have a thread title like "need direction for installing signals." Another missed opportunity... :facepalm:




C855B

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Re: Need direction for installing signals
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2014, 12:53:41 PM »
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Everybody ready for this? Is your wallet ready for this, David? :D Here's how a certifiable signal nut would approach [pun!] this:



1 & 2 - 3-aspect dwarfs for yard exit. Red if switch is aligned against you or block is occupied, yellow if #3 is red or lunar, green if #3 is yellow.

3 - 3-aspect mast for siding* entry. Red if switch is aligned to siding and siding is occupied, yellow if aligned to siding and block is clear, lunar if switch is aligned into depot.

* - I'm assuming the track between #4 and #8 is the siding.

4 - Siding exit. Red if switch aligned against you or the block between #5 and #19 is occupied, yellow if next block is clear and #19 shows red on top, green otherwise.

5 - Interlocking, this one is tricky. Top head: green if switch aligned to mainline and #9 not red, yellow if #9 red, red if the switches are aligned to an occupied track or any track other than mainline; other heads red. Middle head: green if aligned into reverse loop, it's unoccupied, and #15 is not red, yellow if #15 is red, red if loop switch not aligned into loop or loop track is occupied; bottom head red (top head conditions make it red anyway). Bottom head: yellow if aligned into siding, siding is clear and yard access is not diverging, lunar if switch is aligned to mainline and mill lead is aligned into the mill. Also allowable for bottom head to display lunar if whatever track the first two switches are aligned into are occupied, but that's a "dispatcher's discretion" indication and actual prototype rules are complicated.

6 - Loop exit. Green if both switches are aligned properly, block #5-#19 is clear and #19 is not red on top, yellow if aligned OK, block clear but #19 is red on top, red otherwise.

7 - Mainline switches protection. Green if all switches are aligned and #5-#19 is clear, yellow if block clear but #19 is red on top, red otherwise.

8 - Siding exit. Red if switch against you or #10-#11 is occupied, yellow if switch aligned and top head on #11 is read, green otherwise.

9 - Mainline switch protection. Works like #8.

10 - Siding entry. Top head: green if all switches aligned through on mainline, #7 is yellow or green and block unoccupied, yellow if #7 is red, red if occupied or switch is into siding. Lower head: yellow if aligned into siding, siding is clear and switch aligned to the through route, lunar if yard access is aligned into yard and siding is clear, red all other conditions.

11 - Interlocking, more trickiness. Top head: green only if all switches aligned to main, block is clear and #18 is yellow or green, yellow if same conditions but #18 red, red all other conditions. Middle head: green if aligned into loop, and loop (#6-#15) is clear, and #6 is yellow or green; yellow if #6 is red (everything else the same); red all other conditions. Bottom head: yellow if aligned into siding, siding is clear and interchange switch is not diverging, lunar if aligned into loop and switch aligned into mine, OR aligned into clear siding but interchange switch is diverging; red all other conditions.

12 - Siding exit. Red if switch against you or #11-#10 is occupied, yellow if switch aligned and block clear but #10 is red on top, green otherwise.

13 - Mainline switches protection. Red if either switch against you, yellow if switches OK and #11-#10 is clear but #10 is red on top, green otherwise.

14 - Entry signal from mine (dwarf or half mast). Typically two aspects, red, and yellow or green. Red if any of the three switches are against you or #11-#10 is occupied, permissive (yellow or green) if otherwise.

15 - Loop exit. Green if everything aligned, #11-#10 is clear and #10 is not red on top, yellow if aligned, block clear and #10 is red on top, red otherwise.

16 - Entry signal from interchange, dwarf or half-mast. Green if all switches aligned in your favor, #19-#5 block is clear, and #5 not red on top; yellow if everything OK except #5 is red on top, red all other conditions.

17 - Siding exit. Red if switch against you or #19-#5 is occupied, yellow if switch aligned and top head on #5 is red, green otherwise.

18 - Mainline switch protection. Works like #17.

19 - Siding entry. Top head: green if all switches aligned through on mainline, #13 is yellow or green and block unoccupied, yellow if #13 is red, red if occupied or switch is into siding. Lower head: yellow if aligned into siding, siding is clear and switch aligned to the through route, lunar if interchange is aligned, red all other conditions.

19 Alternative, with three heads - Top head as above. Middle head: green if aligned into siding, siding is clear, interchange not diverging, and #12 yellow or green; yellow if #12 red; red all other conditions. Bottom head: lunar if aligned into interchange, red otherwise.

There are 8 detection blocks: yard lead, both sidings, mainline between siding switches, loop track, and both end loops. Most of the detailed aspects are determined by switch alignments.

I have probably missed something, and Adam (draskouasshat) may want to correct me on some of this. Also, failsafes nor grade crossing detection are not considered in any of this, so YMMV.

Is your head full yet?  :trollface: :ashat:

davidgray1974

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Re: Need direction for installing signals
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2014, 06:38:09 PM »
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Everybody ready for this? Is your wallet ready for this, David? :D Here's how a certifiable signal nut would approach [pun!] this:



1 & 2 - 3-aspect dwarfs for yard exit. Red if switch is aligned against you or block is occupied, yellow if #3 is red or lunar, green if #3 is yellow.

3 - 3-aspect mast for siding* entry. Red if switch is aligned to siding and siding is occupied, yellow if aligned to siding and block is clear, lunar if switch is aligned into depot.

* - I'm assuming the track between #4 and #8 is the siding.

4 - Siding exit. Red if switch aligned against you or the block between #5 and #19 is occupied, yellow if next block is clear and #19 shows red on top, green otherwise.

5 - Interlocking, this one is tricky. Top head: green if switch aligned to mainline and #9 not red, yellow if #9 red, red if the switches are aligned to an occupied track or any track other than mainline; other heads red. Middle head: green if aligned into reverse loop, it's unoccupied, and #15 is not red, yellow if #15 is red, red if loop switch not aligned into loop or loop track is occupied; bottom head red (top head conditions make it red anyway). Bottom head: yellow if aligned into siding, siding is clear and yard access is not diverging, lunar if switch is aligned to mainline and mill lead is aligned into the mill. Also allowable for bottom head to display lunar if whatever track the first two switches are aligned into are occupied, but that's a "dispatcher's discretion" indication and actual prototype rules are complicated.

6 - Loop exit. Green if both switches are aligned properly, block #5-#19 is clear and #19 is not red on top, yellow if aligned OK, block clear but #19 is red on top, red otherwise.

7 - Mainline switches protection. Green if all switches are aligned and #5-#19 is clear, yellow if block clear but #19 is red on top, red otherwise.

8 - Siding exit. Red if switch against you or #10-#11 is occupied, yellow if switch aligned and top head on #11 is read, green otherwise.

9 - Mainline switch protection. Works like #8.

10 - Siding entry. Top head: green if all switches aligned through on mainline, #7 is yellow or green and block unoccupied, yellow if #7 is red, red if occupied or switch is into siding. Lower head: yellow if aligned into siding, siding is clear and switch aligned to the through route, lunar if yard access is aligned into yard and siding is clear, red all other conditions.

11 - Interlocking, more trickiness. Top head: green only if all switches aligned to main, block is clear and #18 is yellow or green, yellow if same conditions but #18 red, red all other conditions. Middle head: green if aligned into loop, and loop (#6-#15) is clear, and #6 is yellow or green; yellow if #6 is red (everything else the same); red all other conditions. Bottom head: yellow if aligned into siding, siding is clear and interchange switch is not diverging, lunar if aligned into loop and switch aligned into mine, OR aligned into clear siding but interchange switch is diverging; red all other conditions.

12 - Siding exit. Red if switch against you or #11-#10 is occupied, yellow if switch aligned and block clear but #10 is red on top, green otherwise.

13 - Mainline switches protection. Red if either switch against you, yellow if switches OK and #11-#10 is clear but #10 is red on top, green otherwise.

14 - Entry signal from mine (dwarf or half mast). Typically two aspects, red, and yellow or green. Red if any of the three switches are against you or #11-#10 is occupied, permissive (yellow or green) if otherwise.

15 - Loop exit. Green if everything aligned, #11-#10 is clear and #10 is not red on top, yellow if aligned, block clear and #10 is red on top, red otherwise.

16 - Entry signal from interchange, dwarf or half-mast. Green if all switches aligned in your favor, #19-#5 block is clear, and #5 not red on top; yellow if everything OK except #5 is red on top, red all other conditions.

17 - Siding exit. Red if switch against you or #19-#5 is occupied, yellow if switch aligned and top head on #5 is red, green otherwise.

18 - Mainline switch protection. Works like #17.

19 - Siding entry. Top head: green if all switches aligned through on mainline, #13 is yellow or green and block unoccupied, yellow if #13 is red, red if occupied or switch is into siding. Lower head: yellow if aligned into siding, siding is clear and switch aligned to the through route, lunar if interchange is aligned, red all other conditions.

19 Alternative, with three heads - Top head as above. Middle head: green if aligned into siding, siding is clear, interchange not diverging, and #12 yellow or green; yellow if #12 red; red all other conditions. Bottom head: lunar if aligned into interchange, red otherwise.

There are 8 detection blocks: yard lead, both sidings, mainline between siding switches, loop track, and both end loops. Most of the detailed aspects are determined by switch alignments.

I have probably missed something, and Adam (draskouasshat) may want to correct me on some of this. Also, failsafes nor grade crossing detection are not considered in any of this, so YMMV.

Is your head full yet?  :trollface: :ashat:

Whoa, that's awesome!  But as you said, a lot to take in.  You're only missing one thing though.  When are you coming over to help me install the darn thing?   :D

Modeling the L&N, well at least a few times a year.

TrainCat2

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Re: Need direction for installing signals
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2014, 07:08:47 PM »
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Mike,

I respectfully disagree with #5 as it should have four aspects instead of three; the main and three diverging that are controlled by 4, 6 and 7 in the opposing direction.

Regards
boB Knight

I Spell boB Backwards

C855B

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Re: Need direction for installing signals
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2014, 07:21:18 PM »
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I respectfully disagree with #5 as it should have four aspects instead of three; the main and three diverging that are controlled by 4, 6 and 7 in the opposing direction.

:D

You know, while I should never say never, I have not seen a signal with four heads. Three and a call-on are about as messy as it gets. The rule (and possibly rule-of-thumb) is three, with the bottom head applying to everything beyond the route(s) controlled by the top two heads. That's why you get lunar in the bottom even though it might be for a through routing.

Now we can discuss four colors per head. There are numerous examples of four-color "Type D" vertical color heads in mainline applications. A four-color searchlight head actually exists, it is a non-mechanical head offered by Safetran that uses fiber optics. Some of the aspects I outlined would be better refined with four indications in a single head.