Author Topic: Kato NYC Passenger cars  (Read 2089 times)

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Teditor

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Kato NYC Passenger cars
« on: January 08, 2014, 02:35:30 AM »
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I have a set of New York Central passenger cars by Kato, 4 car set 106-023, Coach, Sleeper, Baggage, Coach and six car set 106-013, Coach, Diner, Sleeper, Baggage, RPO and Observation, none have numbers or names.

From research I have done so far, I am pretty sure most of the cars are foobies, though I have found three names for Observation cars that may be suitable, River Series, Genesee, Maumee and Wabash.

I'd like to number (and name where applicable) the cars in the set, but would like to at least come close with prototype class numbers, I make my own decals, so no problems there, just wish to have some semblance of reality in the numbering.

Keep in mind that I am upside down, down under in Aussie land and the NYC never made it here, so near enough will suffice, just don't like the plain sides and would like to add car numbers for operations.

Any assistance appreciated.

brokemoto

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Re: Kato NYC Passenger cars
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2014, 10:06:12 AM »
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I am looking  at my copy of NYC Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment by Sweetland and Yanosey.  This is not an exhaustive collection of photographs and information about NYCS rolling stock, but it is a good, basic guide to what NYCS ran.  It even has photographs of more than one or two pieces of P&LE equipment.  When it comes to subsidiaries in NYCS tomes, many pay all sorts of attention to the B&A, a little bit to MC and TH&B, and one or two mentions of the P&LE, if at all.

It appears that most of the NYCS lightweight equipment was corrugated side, although there were some smoothsides.  Beech Grove did rebuild some of the corrugated cars into smoothsides beginning in the 1960s.

There were some smoothside baggage cars, #9100-9199, built by  ACF, 1946-47.  They look more like the C-C cars than the Kato, but these are the only smoothsides in the book that do not look like the cheapie baggage cars that began to appear later.

The book shows no smoothside RPOs.  It does show one corrugated side RPO, named Alonzo B. Cornell, #5021.  There was only one other one, #5022, named John A. Dix.

The book shows only one photograph of a smoothside coach that appears to have been built that way.  It shows #2666, from a series numbered 2645-2669 built by ACF 1941-42.

The book shows several smoothside Pullmans.  They had road numbers, but they were not always the most conspicuous.  The name was always more conspicuous.  Those that have the most resemblance to the Kato are NYC #10017 and 10004, Imperial Manor (remember, use Webster's spelling, not Oxford's) ;) and Imperial Jewel, respectively.  These cars were Pullman built, 1939, numbered in the series 10000-10033, the latter were Pullman's numbers.  I forget, exactly, when Pullman and the railroads had to make that convoluted deal regarding ownership/operations of dining, sleeping and lounge cars.  The captions state that NYCS renumbered them in 1952, but does not give the full series numbering.

The NYCS observations generally had larger windows than those on the Kato.  The exceptions would be the corrugated side tavern/lounge cars.  Those that most resemble the Katos are the Creek series cars.  The book shows Hickory Creek and Sandy Creek, the only two in the Lot.  One was numbered 10633, the other 10634.  The captions do not state who built them or when, although I suspect that it was Pullman.  The book does state that they went into service in 1948.

The book shows one smoothside diner, #400, part of lot 2185, Pullman built 1948.  It does not state what the other numbers in the lot were or how many there were.  It does state that there was a kitchen/lounge car numbered 476, so there were fewer than seventy five in the lot.

That is the best information that I can glean from this book.  It is not exhaustive, but is not bad for use as a painting/numbering/naming guide.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 10:09:03 AM by brokemoto »

jmlaboda

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Re: Kato NYC Passenger cars
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2014, 10:46:19 AM »
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The River-series were numbered as follows:

10650 GENESEE RIVER
10651 MAUMEE RIVER
10652 WABASH RIVER

It is worth mentioning that these cars were sold to the B&O in 1956 but that doesn't mean that you can't continue to use them on tour layout beyond that date.  Would recommend you looking at the NYC pages at the Passenger Car Photo Index where you will have a good reference about what number series might be appropriate.

Penn Central purchased six of the UP's leg-rest coaches (the type that is used in the sets) and numbered them in the 3000 - 3005 series.  It might not be too much of a stretch if you were to use these numbers for the coaches you have (the prototype NYC coaches in the 3000-series were corrugated 64-seat coaches such as the coaches offered by Walthers).

Teditor

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Re: Kato NYC Passenger cars
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2014, 04:50:03 PM »
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Thanks guys, greatly appreciated.

Ted (Teditor) Freeman
From the land down under.

NYC1956

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Re: Kato NYC Passenger cars
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2014, 07:16:57 PM »
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I share your dilemma regarding the lack of numbering/lettering on the nice Kato NYC passenger cars.
Although the cars (with the exception of the observation) are not prototypical, I would also like to apply some names and numbers to the cars as representative of the class.

These cars are the dark gray body with light gray window band, so would represent cars during 1948-1954 (several changes occurred after that). The most prominent lettering was in the center of each car’s letterboard. Pullman cars were lettered PULLMAN; dining cars, coaches and headend cars were lettered NEW YORK CENTRAL. Pullman cars also had small lettering NEW YORK CENTRAL near each end. Center lettering was 5” tall; the end lettering was 3” tall.

The first big problem is that no decals are available especially for the car names and numbers.

Car names and numbers should be aluminium gray, 4” tall, and at least close to the appropriate ”blade” lettering style.

That said, here are some specifics:

The Kato observation car is correct for the three “River-series” cars. They were Genesee River, Maumee River and Wabash River.  The main lettering should be PULLMAN with small NEW YORK CENTRAL near each end. (These cars did NOT have the tall windows in the lounge area – two cars built in 1949 for the 20th Century Limited had the tall windows and modified striping dictated by the window configuration. Those were named Hickory Creek and Sandy Creek).

Smooth side coaches were delivered by three manufacturers in 1941-2. These cars were 85 feet long. Although originally delivered in Pullman green with imitation gold striping, they were repainted in the two-tone gray in 1946. They were lettered NEW YORK CENTRAL and numbered 2600-2694.

Smooth side dining cars were built by Pullman-Standard in 1948. These cars were 85 feet long and had a 44-seat dining room and a kitchen. They were lettered NEW YORK CENTRAL and numbered 440-446.

Smooth side baggage cars were built by AC&F in 1946. These cars were 72 feet long. They were lettered NEW YORK CENTRAL and numbered 9100-9199. The door configuration differed from the Kato cars, otherwise they were similar.

Postal/baggage cars were built by AC&F in 1947. These cars were 72 feet long. They were lettered NEW YORK CENTRAL and numbered 5014-5015.

Railway post office cars were built by Pullman-Standard in 1938. These cars were 85 feet long. They were lettered NEW YORK CENTRAL and numbered 5017-5020. The Kato car (based on a UP, AC&F-built car) might be a reasonable stand-in for this class.

Railway post office cars were built by AC&F in 1947. These cars were 72 feet long. They were lettered NEW YORK CENTRAL and numbered 4907-4910.

Baggage Dormitory cars were built in 1948 by Pullman-Standard. These cars were 85 feet long. They were lettered NEW YORK CENTRAL and numbered 8961-8969.

There were no dome cars, although the NYC had considered buying one at one time. You are on your own as to numbering this car.

There were no smooth side sleeper coach cars. Budd built four fluted side cars which were numbered 10800-10803.

The Kato 85 foot sleeping car is a 6-6-4. NYC had no cars of this type. You might apply names assigned to other 85 foot sleeper types used by the NYC. These cars would have the large PULLMAN lettering with small NEW YORK CENTRAL near the ends.  See list of names  below.

Smooth side 4-4-2 sleepers were lettered in the Imperial-series. Examples: Imperial Court, Imperial Palace, Imperial Garden, Imperial Chateau.

Smooth side 13 double bedroom sleepers were lettered in the County-series. Examples: Cook County, Onondaga County, Monroe County, Niagara County.

Smooth side 17 or 18 roomette sleepers were lettered in the City-series. Examples: City of Detroit, City of Albany, City of Rochester, City of Buffalo.

Smooth side 10-5 sleepers were lettered in the Cascade-series. Examples: Cascade Dawn, CascadeValley, Cascade Spirit, Cascade Glade.

Smooth side 10-6 sleepers were lettered in the River-series. Examples: Winding River, Rocky River, Salmon River, Little Fox River.

Smooth side 22 roomette sleepers were lettered in the Bay-series. Examples: Cape Cod Bay, Turtle Bay, Humber Bay, Sandusky Bay.

Smooth side 12 double bedroom sleepers were lettered in the Port-series. Examples: Port Byron, Port of Boston, Port Orange, Port of Windsor.

Hope this helps. Mike Kmetz
Modeling the NYC of the early 1950s

Teditor

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Re: Kato NYC Passenger cars
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2014, 10:34:21 PM »
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Mike,

Thanks very much for the comprehensive information, I will be keeping it on record.

Ted (Teditor) Freeman
From the land down under.

nkalanaga

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Re: Kato NYC Passenger cars
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2014, 12:37:29 AM »
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For the dome car:  Keep it as-is and consider it a run-through or charter car from a connecting line?
N Kalanaga
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hunter_alexander

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Re: Kato NYC Passenger cars
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2014, 11:01:30 AM »
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Mike, have to say that was a very great rundown of NYC equipment. Hard to find fellow NYC followers in N scale.

Baronjutter

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Re: Kato NYC Passenger cars
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2014, 05:58:58 PM »
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Stupid question but what is a foobie?  Something not matching prototype but hoping people will think it's close enough?

Brian M

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Re: Kato NYC Passenger cars
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2014, 06:07:31 PM »
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One note regarding the paint scheme Kato applied to the observation car in this set; it is not correct.  The only observation cars that had the light gray window band drop down below the windows were the two Creek cars built for the 1948 20th Century.

-Brian.

Kisatchie

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Re: Kato NYC Passenger cars
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2014, 06:14:52 PM »
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Stupid question but what is a foobie?  Something not matching prototype but hoping people will think it's close enough?

That about sums it up.


Hmm... for example, Kiz
is a foobie...


Two scientists create a teleportation ray, and they try it out on a cricket. They put the cricket on one of the two teleportation pads in the room, and they turn the ray on.
The cricket jumps across the room onto the other pad.
"It works! It works!"

NYC1956

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Re: Kato NYC Passenger cars
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2014, 11:14:01 AM »
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One note regarding the paint scheme Kato applied to the observation car in this set; it is not correct.  The only observation cars that had the light gray window band drop down below the windows were the two Creek cars built for the 1948 20th Century.
-Brian.
True - it has been so long since I last looked at mine, I had forgotten about that mistake.
Sigh. Correct car - wrong paint scheme.
Both the River-series and (similar) Island-series observation cars had the light gray band straight across the window panel.
Mike
Modeling the NYC of the early 1950s

Brian M

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Re: Kato NYC Passenger cars
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2014, 09:28:49 PM »
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InterMountain/Centralia got a lot closer to the correct paint scheme, even gave the cars the correct names. They just messed up the Pullman versus New York Central lettering, putting Pullman in small lettering at the end of the car. I suppose if one models NYC in the late 50's, after they dropped the Pullman contract, this is fine. But I would guess most modelers would prefer the "as delivered" version of the lettering.

-Brian.

NYC1956

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Re: Kato NYC Passenger cars
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2014, 05:42:13 AM »
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InterMountain/Centralia got a lot closer to the correct paint scheme, even gave the cars the correct names. They just messed up the Pullman versus New York Central lettering, putting Pullman in small lettering at the end of the car. I suppose if one models NYC in the late 50's, after they dropped the Pullman contract, this is fine. But I would guess most modelers would prefer the "as delivered" version of the lettering.
-Brian.
I contacted Ron at Centralia regarding the PULLMAN vs NEW YORK CENTRAL lettering but he was not interested.
Several people also helped me research this issue. Here is what we found:
The issue of the lettering on the NYC River-series observation cars is more problematic than I had first thought. To try to confirm my findings I presented the question to the many knowledgeable people on both the Yahoo NYC-RR group and Yahoo Passenger Car List group. After examination of the notes on the Pullman painting and lettering drawings, the consensus is that the GENESEE RIVER was lettered PULLMAN until October 1954 and was then lettered NEW YORK CENTRAL. The NEW YORK CENTRAL lettering lasted only until March 1956 when the car was sold to the Baltimore and Ohio. There is nothing in the drawings to indicate that the other two cars ever wore anything but the large PULLMAN lettering. [Beginning in 1948 the small NEW YORK CENTRAL lettering was added at both ends of the letterboard]
Lacking photographic evidence to the contrary, PULLMAN lettering seems to be the most appropriate for these cars.
Modeling the NYC of the early 1950s