Author Topic: Help with Kumata Trainmaster Reconstruction  (Read 6548 times)

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bill pearce

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Re: Help with Kumata Trainmaster Reconstruction
« Reply #45 on: July 24, 2013, 05:52:58 PM »
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I'm with Bob, stuff an Atlas Trainmaster frame/mech in it. I've done just that with some old Hallmarks, and although they are a littly noisy (the plastic shell seems to damp out some sound but the brass shell is like a drum)? I've done that to several Hallmarks and am happy with the results.

mmagliaro

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Re: Help with Kumata Trainmaster Reconstruction
« Reply #46 on: July 24, 2013, 07:59:18 PM »
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Funny you should say that, as I just got a reply from them this morning, and was quite surprised at how helpful they were, and even more surprised that they believed they had parts available! They apparently still have some N scale in stock as well, including a Milwaukee EP-2 bipolar. This is the message they sent me:

Holy Cow, that is amazing that they have that stuff!   I know I've tried asking at Key Imports and Samhongsa about
leftovers and spare parts for their PRR steam and always got nothing.  (Nothing but a suspicious look from the Key
rep that left me thinking that he does know where there are parts, but doesn't want to tell.)

u18b

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Re: Help with Kumata Trainmaster Reconstruction
« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2013, 09:36:30 PM »
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Hi Bob,
I got home and tried out the conversion.

Yes, the Atlas chassis is narrow enough that the brass shell fits over it.

Of course, I couldn't do much because there are tabs and the ends at the noses would have to be cut away from the walkway.

So yes.  With a lot of cutting and with a lot of insulating tape--- it should work.

(but fixing the original chassis would be better in my mind).
Ron Bearden
CSX N scale Archivist
http://u18b.com

"All get what they want-- not all like what they get."  Aslan the Lion in the Chronicles of Narnia by C.S.Lewis.

ChristianJDavis1

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Re: Help with Kumata Trainmaster Reconstruction
« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2013, 11:13:26 PM »
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Back before I even owned this locomotive, I was devising ways of fixing it. I thought about the Atlas mechanism, but I am not one for altering things too much (such as cutting away parts of locomotive shells). I did, however, get a very good idea from looking at older Life-Like plastic frame mechanisms, which is that they look almost exactly like older brass locomotive frames. Replacing it with a modified Life-Like frame would most likely make it run much better and make adding DCC much easier. Then again, I have become infatuated with the idea of fixing this mechanism, and plan to stick with this project, even if it means a lot more work. That way, I will appreciate this locomotive that much more (I know, I should stop being so sentimental over a five-inch piece of metal, but, whatever...).
- Christian J. Davis

Bob Bufkin

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Re: Help with Kumata Trainmaster Reconstruction
« Reply #49 on: July 24, 2013, 11:21:05 PM »
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Hi Bob,
I got home and tried out the conversion.

Yes, the Atlas chassis is narrow enough that the brass shell fits over it.

Of course, I couldn't do much because there are tabs and the ends at the noses would have to be cut away from the walkway.

So yes.  With a lot of cutting and with a lot of insulating tape--- it should work.

(but fixing the original chassis would be better in my mind).

Thanks Ron for that Info.  Reason why I want to do this is that the brass has the traiphones and other proper PRR details an my Atlas one is DCC.  Of course, I could just remove the trainphone antnnas and transplant to the Atlas one.

ChristianJDavis1

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Re: Help with Kumata Trainmaster Reconstruction
« Reply #50 on: July 27, 2013, 06:55:06 AM »
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Okay, I managed to obtain another Kumata Trainmaster to use as a parts source until I can find other parts, seeing as Kumata has stopped responding to my emails. The conversion will have to wait, as there is an NJS display today, and I want at least one of the engines to run (we can just call it the "golden" engine for now).
- Christian J. Davis

u18b

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Re: Help with Kumata Trainmaster Reconstruction
« Reply #51 on: July 27, 2013, 11:09:09 AM »
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OK Christian,

You're ready to go now.



Obviously, you need the two tiny screws to the motor/motor mount.

Please note that the Right side with the universal joint, the gearbox is INSULATED.  You can tell by those little plastic collars that are around the screws.  Never over-torque the screws- the collars will break.

So I call one gearbox the "hot" side, and one the insulated side.
The gearbox on the left is charged hot. 
And so is the main frame.
And so is the motor frame.
And so is the motor shaft.
And so is the shell.

So the right gearbox must be insulated from the frame.
And the right wormshaft must be insulated from the motor shaft.

Now, some K&S brass tubing will work as a U-joint connector to replace the stock one.  I don't remember which size.
And you might want to do that just to get it running.
The u-joint cups have a hole in them- which means if you push them too far down the shaft, the shaft will protrude into the hollow area.   You don't want this since each shaft is charged and you will get a short.  As I look at yours, one of them is pushed too far onto the shaft because they are too far away from each other.

Super Important!!!!!!  Do NOT solder on that tab at the right gearbox as is.

If you solder on that tab while it is in place, you will melt the plastic insulator-- they are very fragile.  What you must do is remove the solder tab by removing the screw and THEN solder a jumper wire to the tab.

So the motor gets juice from the jumper on the insulated side, and from the frame on the hot side.


Now, I have already suggested using Atlas parts as replacements/improvements (page 2 of this thread).
The SD7/9 CHINA! flywheels are GREAT for kitbashing because they have a plastic insert so that you can hand-press them onto the shafts.  Newer flywheels are machine pressed on and require a puller to move.

The u-joint is two Atlas parts (last time I ordered, I thought they came together and was disappointed).  They don't have photos for such old parts they will not make again.

This is from my Trainmaster.  Same orientation as in your first shot.

 
Now, on the hot gearbox, your screws are obviously missing.  You can get new ones from your donor.
However, even though the screws connect the juice from the gearbox down to the main frame, you still need insulators between the gearbox and the frame-- they are probably missing.  They are clear rectangular acetate.  The reason is that you want BOTH gearboxes at the same height.  Admittedly, we are not talking about much, but I would do it.

Now, to get this thing to run.  Problem is that the wheels can bounce around and touch the frame right above them.  You will probably see semi-circular marks on the frame where the wheels are rubbing.  Some wheels won't matter since they will be charged hot the same as the frame.  But if opposites touch-  short!

Solution- take a piece of clear packing take and cover the entire area from the fuel tank outward to the edge (both ends).  Then take a Xacto knife and trim the tape away from the gearbox holes and from the frame.  Now, you have insulated the frame from the wheels.

Second- the truck side frames are micro-meters from the side sill when assembled.  The hot end is no problem, but the insulated end will cause a short.



Solution- jack up the shell just a little bit.  I use a few of those hundred Micro-Trains black plastic washers that come with truck packages that I have in my junk box.  You have to trim them a little, but I superglue them on the top side of the frame over each screw hole.  Now, the trucks don't touch the side sill.



If you do these things, you should have a pretty good running loco when finished.

I do a few more things, but these are the really important ones.

Ron Bearden

« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 11:30:29 AM by u18b »
Ron Bearden
CSX N scale Archivist
http://u18b.com

"All get what they want-- not all like what they get."  Aslan the Lion in the Chronicles of Narnia by C.S.Lewis.

u18b

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Re: Help with Kumata Trainmaster Reconstruction
« Reply #52 on: July 27, 2013, 11:38:59 AM »
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Here is my revised chassis with the changes mentioned above.



Notice on the left/Hot side that I lost a spacer like you did under the gearbox.  I just used a business car piece since it was about the same size.

Mark Spookshow Peterson tested it and said it ran almost as smooth as his Atlas Trainmaster.

Ron
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 11:41:38 AM by u18b »
Ron Bearden
CSX N scale Archivist
http://u18b.com

"All get what they want-- not all like what they get."  Aslan the Lion in the Chronicles of Narnia by C.S.Lewis.

strummer

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Re: Help with Kumata Trainmaster Reconstruction
« Reply #53 on: July 27, 2013, 11:45:37 AM »
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This has been a very interesting discussion (so far)...

Mark in Oregon

u18b

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Re: Help with Kumata Trainmaster Reconstruction
« Reply #54 on: July 27, 2013, 11:56:12 AM »
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Kumata locos have a pretty bad reputation.

But I recently bough a pair of Samhongsa E units.  The shorting was so bad in BOTH units I knew it was going to take hours and hours to track it all down.  So I just returned them.

So, the beauty of KMT locos, is yes, they have shorting issues (like a lot of brass), but if you know what to do to improve them, they can be fantastic locos.  I happen to like the simpler design of these locos.

I'm a fan.
Ron Bearden
CSX N scale Archivist
http://u18b.com

"All get what they want-- not all like what they get."  Aslan the Lion in the Chronicles of Narnia by C.S.Lewis.

spookshow

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Re: Help with Kumata Trainmaster Reconstruction
« Reply #55 on: July 27, 2013, 01:07:20 PM »
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Re the shorting Samhongsa E's, my money would be on the wheelwipers as the source of the problems. People always screw those up when they take the trucks apart.

Cheers,
-Mark

u18b

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Re: Help with Kumata Trainmaster Reconstruction
« Reply #56 on: July 27, 2013, 02:19:39 PM »
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True.  I hate those wipers.

But in this case, sideframes were slightly bent, touching the rail occasionally, and also insulated wheels were right up against charged sideframes.

I knew it would take a lot of tinkering for something I was told was in "mint/new" condition.
Ron Bearden
CSX N scale Archivist
http://u18b.com

"All get what they want-- not all like what they get."  Aslan the Lion in the Chronicles of Narnia by C.S.Lewis.

ChristianJDavis1

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Re: Help with Kumata Trainmaster Reconstruction
« Reply #57 on: August 02, 2013, 05:38:18 PM »
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Well I'll be darn'd! I arrive home today to find a letter on my desk, and lo-and-behold, it is from Kumata! I just thought they were ignoring me, but I was wrong. What follows is what I received:











I was very surprised to receive this, and am very glad that I did not start cannibalizing the other just yet. I hope to update this thread more often now. Also, they even mentioned you, Ron.
- Christian J. Davis

u18b

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Re: Help with Kumata Trainmaster Reconstruction
« Reply #58 on: August 02, 2013, 06:22:26 PM »
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Guard that with your life!

Those are rare parts.

Actually, I sent photos of the screw pin and various screws (next to a metric ruler).
Who knows, maybe that helped.

Ron
« Last Edit: August 02, 2013, 06:32:11 PM by u18b »
Ron Bearden
CSX N scale Archivist
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"All get what they want-- not all like what they get."  Aslan the Lion in the Chronicles of Narnia by C.S.Lewis.

pnolan48

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Re: Help with Kumata Trainmaster Reconstruction
« Reply #59 on: August 02, 2013, 06:51:56 PM »
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What an interesting thread!

I've sometimes been able to find parts that were "not available" just by asking very nicely and very persistently until I got the right person, who often shipped them to me no charge in a plain envelope.