N-Scale - What is the average mind set?

[sirenwerks]

Though it seems to be a dirty word in the hobby nowadays I think having reviews of new items helps. The product announcements sail right past most of us; we might glance at the picture, see if its our scale, and if not, move on. Even if its our scale I doubt everybody reads every word of the press-release script.
But  with N scale it's hard to find reviews anymore. The big review mag has shifted to mostly HO stuff; the on-line mag refuses to do any reviews of anything; the little N mags don't run regular or any reviews either. MR's and RMC's reviews are viewed suspiciously as pro-advertiser and thus dismissed.
What's unfortunate is that now, with fewer and fewer places a modeler can go and actually see in person (or even handle) new railroad items, a mass media outlet may be the only way these people can "get to know" new products.
The forums are of uneven value, as you wind up with people who love the thing or hate it  with equal passion, and let you know all the (personal) reasons why. It may be interesting to see on a thread a brand-new loco completely broken down into component parts, but what does that tell the average modeler?
I'm not a big fan of the traditional long-winded review with the complete, dry-facts history and relevant era of the model. But I think a short, "let's look this thing over" version that has some photos and as much data on the model's features, construction, materials, workability, and other aspects, looked at as if the reader had the thing in his own hands. No judgment, no recommendation/dissing by the reviewer -- just thorough, detailed reporting.
The small cost of donating a model to some e-zine or mag to do a review would be more than offset by the publicity it would get.

I couldn't have said it better myself.  I'm lucky to live near Kleins, but even then half the product doesn't get put on display and remains in the warehouse where I can't see it, look at it from all six sides.  As I'm hoping to relocate to a more rural locale, one without the prospect of a decent LHS, I will be relying more on product announcements and reviews and actual model photos.  One of the things I like about this site is the member reviews, like Daniels recent Showcase MOW truck thread.  And, of course, the magazines are another place but, with the pace of new product releases of late, I think the N scale mags will have a hard time keeping up and devoting the pages necessary. 

I think modelers are the best spokesman though.  It's just a shame the mags say they're not getting enough material; and that some of the material I have seen published is, well, kind of sad in terms of writing and photos.  I plan on becoming a contributor as soon as I can get settled somewhere and back to modeling.  But while I can't help in terms of photos, I'm a good writer and editor.  As many here might feel, I can be overly critical but I'll put my money where my mouth is and pony up free wordsmithing help in an effort to make something happen within the means I have at the moment.  With no Xactos in my immediate future, I can wield my red pen and laptop and I'm not looking for a byline.  If anyone's interested on taking me up on the offer, shoot me a PM.

[jlong]

Hey Robert...I was agreeing with 6axle's first post and why the 3 ft rule applies to some people. That is no crock. When asked for opinions, maybe we should just say nothing and let you be the expert. 

[DKS]

Though it seems to be a dirty word in the hobby nowadays I think having reviews of new items helps. The product announcements sail right past most of us; we might glance at the picture, see if its our scale, and if not, move on. Even if its our scale I doubt everybody reads every word of the press-release script.

+1. Of course, honest reviews in magazines are avoided these days because, if the review is the slightest bit negative, the manufacturer will yank their advertisements from the magazine. This has happened enough that many of the few remaining reviews are glowing to the point of absurdity (not to mention inaccuracy). It is a shame this is the case, but then again, we now have forums, where folks like Daniel are able to share honest reviews without fear of repercussion.

Take the NZT products for example.  Their 3 latest products: School Bus, Cat Crawler and the PRR Bulk Containers, from what I saw, sold very well.  But AFAIK, NZT never even place ads in magazines for any of those products.  It seems that word of mouth was enough to spur the sales of all those products.

Indeed. So far, I've sold more crawlers than almost everything else I make combined, all due to a couple of forum posts online. Had I executed an advertising campaign for these products, it would likely have over-stressed my production capacity. I do have a generic print ad in Model Railroading News, but I receive far more "hits" from forum posts and online advertising.

The "3ft rule" is a crock.  Try putting your engines and cars on the rails from three feet away, then tell me how valid it is.

Robert, I must emphatically disagree. Obviously one moves closer to the layout to place items on the rails. But then, some modelers will step back to view the scene, and not move any closer than about three feet again. I have seen this. It is most definitely not a "crock" (and calling it this is disrespectful). Not everyone stoops and squints at their layout from six inches.

[jlong]

I would have to say a fair majority of N scalers are table top RTR guys and don't post on forums. They don't super detail, they don't take pictures. The status quo here does not represent the entire N scale community.

[VonRyan]

Being a young'in, I don't always have the money to buy the latest things. I tend mostly to rely on getting deals and second-hands from train shows.

As of yet, I don't have many skills to ply on projects, and painting is one of those skills that I want to have, but hopefully that shall come quite soon.

I can weather quite well, but I don't see a need for superdetailing save for caboose markerlights, Z scale couplers on the pilots of lead engines and the rear of cabooses, and wire handrails if the factory installed ones are larger than the hand of a presier N scale figure.

As for paying for and/or buying custom-painted locos, there is no way I could afford it, but even if I could, I would only do so for a very signature locomotive like a PRR T-1 to get the very best look.

-Cody F.

[C855B]

Random thoughts:

• I am an "ambiance" modeler - the goal is capturing the feel of a scene in motion rather than every rivet. Proportions are important, which is why I have to squint a little to blur the disproportions of Kato SD40s and 45s, which are unfortunately required staples of the prototype/era I model. However, major "identifying" details are important to me, such as plows and horns, as they help set the ambiance for the specific prototype.
• The "3-foot rule is a crock" is a crock. If it was a requirement that satisfactory N scale modeling mandated detailing every item in the scene to microscopic levels, not a one of us would live long enough to meet the goal, even when throwing money at certain bits - like hiring-out the painting - is an available solution. OTOH, you have to start somewhere, and that start for me may well be contracting with Brian for painting and weathering to free my time up for layout construction.
• There are many photos here and elsewhere that exhibit fine examples of N scale modeling. The burning question becomes: how staged are the photos? I've seen just enough on-board videos to understand that not every corner and every photo angle on every layout is John Allen-quality... even the layouts that look fantastic in carefully-selected still photos. Notable exceptions here are David's, M.J.'s, and Mark Dance's work. You guys just rock. I will especially single-out M.J. - he also goes for the ambiance rather than every bloomin' rivet, and it is incredibly effective.
• Weathering. Weathering, weathering, weathering. This is also an ambiance issue, the difference between toy trains and railroad models. But... it's a decided fear factor. Do I trash the value of my $100+ bought model by making it... OMG!... look dirty? And where is the fuzzy gray line between "tastefully aged" and "completely destroyed, yuck!"? I've seen some of the former but a whole bunch of the latter. And I'm admittedly very much afraid to get into truly weathering my own stuff, as much as I logically understand that it must be done.
• TRW is probably not the best place to pose the original question, because the tenor here is most definitely not of "the average modeler". I'd ask it on Trainboard.

[jlong]

• TRW is probably not the best place to pose the original question, because the tenor here is most definitely not of "the average modeler". I'd ask it on Trainboard.

Are you saying I'm a poor fit here?



 

[wm3798]

I think you might be asking the wrong crowd.  Although there has been an influx of "general interest" folks here at the Railwire since Paul Vader evaporated the Alderon... er Atlas forum a few years ago, most of the established populace here are do-it-yourselfers, envelope pushers, experimenters and even a few OCD hard core rivet counters.  The header images say it all... more fringe than core.

My personal view is that if you have enough money to pay someone to do your model building for you, you should have a different hobby, like owning a major league baseball team, or sailing in the America's Cub or something.  And frankly, the models you should be buying should be the swim suit variety rather than something from Athearn.

But alas, we all derive pleasure from our craft in different ways, and it is an awfully big tent.  I think the bulk of the audience here works first for our own indulgence, and secondarily for the joy of gently competing with each other.  Rarely do those two compulsions involve stroking a check to someone for a complete project.  That said, some of us engage in a bit of commerce on the side, I put in decoders, others do some painting and customizing.  Occasionally it's for each other, but rarely is it a stem to stearn project.  Typically, we're filling in each other's blanks, and almost always because we're each working on fairly substantial layouts, so time for things we're not expert in becomes better spent by those who are.

I don't know if that answers your question or not.

As for advertising, I have a blurb on my website, and will make occasional mentions of the decoder thing (like this thinly veiled plug), and that's enough to keep me in beer money.  You probably don't want to take on too much work, because then it stops being fun and you feel more stressed about your hobby time than if you're doing it for yourself. (I know this first hand.)

Lee

[6axlepwr]

I think the real question I was asking was definitely answered for me and I think it is obvious in all scales. People want the work, but they do not want to pay for it. That is the bottom line.

I was lucky in HO. I had a few customers that did WANT it and did PAY for it. All my HO stuff that I sold went for quite a bit. I think a lot more than you would imagine. The only one that went to EBAY sold for buy it now at $1250.00. Now I do fully understand that there is NO WAY IN HECK that my N-Scale stuff is worth that much. Not even close. Not nearly as much effort goes into it. But to take the time to prep and paint a model in N-Scale and then turn around and sell it for a couple pennies over retail is definitely not worth it for me. I think minimum for the paintwork would between $100.00 - $150.00 over the cost of the model and decals. I do not include the paint because I can use it on other projects. Your getting more than just an off the shelf model. But I think the majority of buyers would think that is to much also.

So instead of custom work and selling off my models, I'll keep them and make some extra cash with writing articles for MRH. At $60.00 a page I can make a whole lot more than selling a model and I get to keep them  .

So stay tuned, I am working on what I hope to be some absolutely killer looking DEEX units. I'll start e new thread on what I am working on.

[kalbert]

Random thoughts:

• I am an "ambiance" modeler - the goal is capturing the feel of a scene in motion rather than every rivet. Proportions are important, which is why I have to squint a little to blur the disproportions of Kato SD40s and 45s, which are unfortunately required staples of the prototype/era I model. However, major "identifying" details are important to me, such as plows and horns, as they help set the ambiance for the specific prototype.
• The "3-foot rule is a crock" is a crock. If it was a requirement that satisfactory N scale modeling mandated detailing every item in the scene to microscopic levels, not a one of us would live long enough to meet the goal, even when throwing money at certain bits - like hiring-out the painting - is an available solution. OTOH, you have to start somewhere, and that start for me may well be contracting with Brian for painting and weathering to free my time up for layout construction.
• There are many photos here and elsewhere that exhibit fine examples of N scale modeling. The burning question becomes: how staged are the photos? I've seen just enough on-board videos to understand that not every corner and every photo angle on every layout is John Allen-quality... even the layouts that look fantastic in carefully-selected still photos. Notable exceptions here are David's, M.J.'s, and Mark Dance's work. You guys just rock. I will especially single-out M.J. - he also goes for the ambiance rather than every bloomin' rivet, and it is incredibly effective.
• Weathering. Weathering, weathering, weathering. This is also an ambiance issue, the difference between toy trains and railroad models. But... it's a decided fear factor. Do I trash the value of my $100+ bought model by making it... OMG!... look dirty? And where is the fuzzy gray line between "tastefully aged" and "completely destroyed, yuck!"? I've seen some of the former but a whole bunch of the latter. And I'm admittedly very much afraid to get into truly weathering my own stuff, as much as I logically understand that it must be done.
• TRW is probably not the best place to pose the original question, because the tenor here is most definitely not of "the average modeler". I'd ask it on Trainboard.

You pretty much described my thoughts as well. I shoot for the general feel. Everything can't be a meticulously detailed piece but it should have a generally correct shape give or take a few inches and the signature details that make it what it is. Like a Nathan K5 horn on a CNW AC4400 or a gong bell on a GP50 or a rotary beacon on a C425.

I would estimate a vast majority of the photos shown here are the exception rather than the rule. For every stunning photo you see here and elsewhere know that there is a whole memory card full of crappy pictures of crappy models to go with it. Certainly some strike gold more than others, but even the "pros" are only sharing the stuff that worked out.

Weathering scares the shaz out of me as I've got quite a bit of time invested in sourcing some RTR stuff that are not real popular, and the stuff I painted and decaled myself is even scarier. It needs to be done though, as it is part of the whole effect. There wasn't (and for the most part still isn't) any shiny paint on anything from Winona to Huron.

As for TRW vs TB, I don't know... The talk is bigger here for sure anyway 

[VonRyan]

With TRW vs. other forums, In the true definition of "Average" or "Mean" for the statistically inclined, it would be best to figure out a way to compile comparable data from all forums that poses an N-scale population, and where that population is easily identifiable so as to avoid pollution from the larger/smaller scales.
Once the data is compiled, it can then be used to calculate an actual "average" mindset of the N-Scale modeler/modeller.

-Cody F.

[basementcalling]

I've semi returned to the hobby after a few years putting too many hours into the job and not enough on the trains. In the short time I was away the scale changed. I've seen modeling on these pages I never thought to see in N scale, though Robert's 1991 picture was one I saw in MR as a recent college grad and it passes the test of time with flying colors.

For me, if it doesn't look good from 3 feet it certainly won't look good from 3 inches. If a scene really pops most of the time people will want to get a closer view, or at least that was my experience from the show circuit with several NTRAK clubs.

Details are important, but color and texture are even more so. In N scale, it's so easy to get a product that looks wrong because it's oversized. Rail is a big one. I can instantly recognize an N scale photo many times simply by looking at the track or tie spacing. Boy has that changed with the new products available and the growth of hand laying - something I doubt I try.

Seems in the old days, every manufacturer had their own formula for UP Armor Yellow. None matched. Weathering can do the same to the paint on the real UP locos, but you never used to see weathering in an N scale photo - probably because of the "collector" mentality from one segment of N scalers. That too is changing. I never thought I would ever see a MT car with Oregon effects in the box.

The camera is unforgiving, as are a few nitpickers, but I think most of us appreciate a well composed and carried out scene that includes as many elements of realism as the modeler can manage.

Peter

[robert3985]

Robert, I must emphatically disagree. Obviously one moves closer to the layout to place items on the rails. But then, some modelers will step back to view the scene, and not move any closer than about three feet again. I have seen this. It is most definitely not a "crock" (and calling it this is disrespectful). Not everyone stoops and squints at their layout from six inches.

DKS...that's the point.  Obviously, since "...one moves closer to the layout to place items on the rails." the 3ft "rule" is obviously spurious...obviously.  If all details not able to be seen at an arbitrary distance of 3ft were superfluous, then trains wouldn't run, turnouts wouldn't work, solid state electronics wouldn't work...ad nauseum.

Of course people look at their layout and work from different distances.  But to assume they're backing off to look because details disgust them, or  they're thinking "Uh oh, I can see some details, so I'd better back off to three feet" is ridiculous.  They're just getting a different perspective...obviously.

To state a fact.  Everybody in this hobby gets up close and squints at their models, or their layouts...sometimes stooping to do so.  EVERYBODY does it...100% of us!  Not all the time...obviously...but on a regular basis.

Stating that I'm being "disrespectful" by calling this spurious "rule" a "crock" is 100% correct.  It doesn't deserve a whit of respect...because it isn't a "rule"...it's a fabrication, and it governs nobody...unless, of course, you choose to be governed by a spurious rule.

Assuming that I'm disrespectful of everybody who looks at their layout from more than six inches away, is patently ridiculous...but also very funny! 


Thanks DKS for the laughs!!

[DKS]

EVERYBODY does it...100% of us!

And you know this how, exactly?

And thank you for a good chuckle--your deconstruction of the "rule" was quite the rib-tickler... methinks you are reading entirely too much into it, and getting hung up on the isolated definition of the word...

[robert3985]

Are you saying I'm a poor fit here?

 

Speaking of laughs....Hahahaha...This kills me!!  [/list]