Author Topic: Upside Down Upper Decks  (Read 4324 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

basementcalling

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 3403
  • Gender: Male
  • Respect: +647
Re: Upside Down Upper Decks
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2013, 08:40:59 PM »
0
How about using a right angle brace instead of using shelf brackets? Just bolt the vertical part to the wall and then place the plywood base on top of the horizontal part of the brace.  These are quite strong and stiff (even though they are flat).  This solution would not take up any of the space in the back, or on the layout's surface.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-8-in-Zinc-Plated-Corner-Brace-15215/202033926#.UaQTZGy6Nph


They are not cheap when you get to talking 10x12 sizes and up.

SO, two additional thoughts:

1)  The brackets you showed are not designed to carry downward forcing loads in the manner you have them installed.  even with foam scenery you are putting the load weight in the OPPOSITE direction of the designed load channel or direction.  This may well resul in brackets that slowly move past 90 degrees over time, meaning your shelves will slope down.

2) Gary's box frame method is a tweak on a box beam method that Jim Fitzgerald used to advocate for in N Trak conventions in the early 1990's I don't remember if he ever published his ideas - I saw it at a clinic in Orlando almost 20 years ago - but if you found that, you'd have a rigid construction method that would give you a channel to run wiring through and the ability to use the uprights you already have in place to screw shelves to.



Phil, the load directions is the second best argument against in the thread.

I built a box beam module from NTRAK Newsletter specs. Was a frustrating experience for my 20 year old carpentry skills. It was before I spent a summer working with an interior trim carpenter.

Having just dismantled my layout, I would recommend against the upside down bit.  If you are faced with a move, you will be forced to destroy a fair amount of the scenery to remove the basic structure of the layout.

My simple solution for the wall brackets was to just paint them into the backdrop...



Another easy solution would be to build out a backdrop in front of the brackets, and provide for at least the removal of the upper deck without disturbing it.

lee

Lee that's the best argument against I've heard. Not to mention that if I had to just remove the shelf for access to the lower deck at some point after some type of disaster, I would have to destroy scenery. Sorry to read about the demise of your layout. You're not in the neighborhood so to speak, but neither is the VA Eastern Shore out of my neck of the woods.

Actually, you have your stringers exposed, you want to build something that also connects to the side. Jamie from CSX Dixie Line did something similar for his wall brackets, http://csxdixieline.blogspot.com/2008/07/howto-build-wall-bracket.html. I have exposed studs on mine, so I had 1 1/2" to work with but did the same thing. Substitute your stringers for his long bracing and you have essentially the same setup. You could even make them a L-girder with 3/4" exposed on the end, get yourself a Kreg jig and put some of them on the flat side going into the stringers underneath and mount both into the stringers from the front and side.

Also, I meant to comment earlier on your peninsula setup. I was going to recommend using L-girder construction to support the bracing for the double-deck peninsular. Here's a post from my site on the benchwork I have built:

Peninsula Support: http://www.conrailharrisburgline.org/2010/11/layout-progress-november-22-2010.html
Deck support: http://www.conrailharrisburgline.org/2010/11/layout-progress-november-29-2010.html

I borrowed it off of Jamie and Bruce Faulkner of CSX Shenandoah Division (his method starts here in his construction journal, http://shendiv.com/construction/20020224.html) but wanted more space under the layout to store things (like the beer cooler in the one pic),

Phil

Phil, thanks for the links. I'd seen those layout pages before but not those specific blog entries on bench work. I am currently looking at the short end of the "J" peninsula and seeking to prevent THE BIG ONE from striking with 8.0 on the richter scale if I bump the layout. I may have to find some way to add legs and connecting them via L girders is exactly what I did on my previous layout, though that was single deck. I also have the 1x4 joists laying flat so they better supported the modules that sat on top of the permanent benchwork. It was so solid it survived Virginia's 5.9 earthquake (centered 15 miles from where I live) last year with no movement I could find. Not even a car tipped over, and there was damage in other rooms of the house.

I don't know if I could use the assembly line techniques though as the lower deck on one side has a 9 inch drop in the middle for a big bridge crossing scene, so any L girders I did make would have been short.

I think part of the wobble problem may be the overall height of the studs. I went to 80 inches on this peninsula to be sure the upper deck (elevation 60 inches) had enough sky behind it to look good even in photos. I might need to top the studs and lower the height, but I think I came up with a connected leg arrangement that will eliminate the rocking and still not block access to a couple hatches I may need to access hidden loops of track from the inside.
Peter Pfotenhauer

conrail98

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 1452
  • Gender: Male
  • Respect: +40
Re: Upside Down Upper Decks
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2013, 09:24:39 PM »
0

Phil, thanks for the links. I'd seen those layout pages before but not those specific blog entries on bench work. I am currently looking at the short end of the "J" peninsula and seeking to prevent THE BIG ONE from striking with 8.0 on the richter scale if I bump the layout. I may have to find some way to add legs and connecting them via L girders is exactly what I did on my previous layout, though that was single deck. I also have the 1x4 joists laying flat so they better supported the modules that sat on top of the permanent benchwork. It was so solid it survived Virginia's 5.9 earthquake (centered 15 miles from where I live) last year with no movement I could find. Not even a car tipped over, and there was damage in other rooms of the house.

I don't know if I could use the assembly line techniques though as the lower deck on one side has a 9 inch drop in the middle for a big bridge crossing scene, so any L girders I did make would have been short.

I think part of the wobble problem may be the overall height of the studs. I went to 80 inches on this peninsula to be sure the upper deck (elevation 60 inches) had enough sky behind it to look good even in photos. I might need to top the studs and lower the height, but I think I came up with a connected leg arrangement that will eliminate the rocking and still not block access to a couple hatches I may need to access hidden loops of track from the inside.

Understood, but you could probably do some kind of cut/support on the L-girder for the one side of the peninsula. Perhaps if you run an L-girder or some extra bracing down the studs, it'd help with the stability? Just so you know, the techniques in the blog articles are pretty solid. Here are 3 pics from my current benchwork, still replete with items taken up off the floor when Sandy rolled through:

Side of peninsula with wood and a carpet roll on 2nd level:


Other Side of peninsula:


Wall supports:


The only thing I'd like to redo on my benchwork is the facia support. I was using some scrap pieces which is why it looks wavy, each was about 40" long. One thing I've found, benchwork can go up and down pretty easily, once that first piece of track is laid, you're pretty much stuck with it unless you chainsaw everything out,

Phil

PS: Yes, I overbuild, I even out Ed's lack of benchwork
- Phil

basementcalling

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 3403
  • Gender: Male
  • Respect: +647
Re: Upside Down Upper Decks
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2013, 09:56:20 PM »
0
Understood, but you could probably do some kind of cut/support on the L-girder for the one side of the peninsula. Perhaps if you run an L-girder or some extra bracing down the studs, it'd help with the stability? Just so you know, the techniques in the blog articles are pretty solid. Here are 3 pics from my current benchwork, still replete with items taken up off the floor when Sandy rolled through:


The only thing I'd like to redo on my benchwork is the facia support. I was using some scrap pieces which is why it looks wavy, each was about 40" long. One thing I've found, benchwork can go up and down pretty easily, once that first piece of track is laid, you're pretty much stuck with it unless you chainsaw everything out,

Phil

PS: Yes, I overbuild, I even out Ed's lack of benchwork

Impressive. Indeed your skills are complete!

Not sure why that case of light beverages didn't rate a spot up on the benchwork.  :P

I have a set of legs I made that can reassemble to help, but most spots they are not tall enough to attach to the supports, and I think they need to be far enough away from the center to hold things in place, but not so close to the aisle to invite kicking from operators or clumsy owners. :facepalm:

Building benchwork with the proper tools is pretty easy. I essentially have all mine up in 4 days of solo work with lots of time to check Facebook, fuss with Pandora, and click "show unread posts" on here to see if someone actually paid any attention to what I posted in my layout construction thread.  :D

I do have 1/2 the upper deck left to attach, but that doesn't need doing until the ship is stabilized. Definitely have to talk to Sulu about helm control.

Peter Pfotenhauer

up1950s

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 9673
  • Gender: Male
  • Respect: +2078
Re: Upside Down Upper Decks
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2013, 10:05:26 AM »
0
Might work , might not be worth the work ?



Richie Dost