Duckunder's Gotta Go...

[ljudice]

Ok, I admit I'm an idiot for not listening to you guys....

The duck under HAS TO GO.  This means I need to build two "blobs" - or extend the current benchwork 2' to create blobs.
I easily have the isle space.  I want to keep the 24" radius curves but there may have to be some sacrifice of a couple of inches.

Am I doing the right thing to make these changes?

[pnolan48]

Yep. What is easy--45" duckunder at age 45--becomes impossible at 65 (or earlier with a bad back like me). My Portsmouth Branch had four blobs to avoid duckunders. The blobs were well worth all the effort. And the layout actually became more believable.

[conrail98]

The duck under HAS TO GO.  This means I need to build two "blobs" - or extend the current benchwork 2' to create blobs.
I easily have the isle space.  I want to keep the 24" radius curves but there may have to be some sacrifice of a couple of inches.

Am I doing the right thing to make these changes?

The decision is yours, obviously, but if it's a one deck railroad, could you replace it with a swing bridge of some kind? One of the layouts I operate on has this in two places and it works out well. The one I did on Friday night also has a drop-leaf for access to avoid a duckunder. Other questions to ask would be would two blobs restrict aisle spaces on either side and limit aisle width and/or operator passing? Would removing the duck-under alter any operations you may do?

Phil

[Hornwrecker]

It's only going to get more annoying.

[ljudice]

All good points...   I am in re-construction mode right now, so there is nothing to lose in terms of operations.

I would need two blobs - one approximately 18-20 inches of additional depth for 3-4 feet.  The other is more difficult, maybe 2 additional feet needed.  The main concern is that the two blobs will be next to each other, so I need to do more careful measurement to make sure one doesn't constrain the other one.  There is a pipe (holding center beam of the house up) that may need to be incorporated into one of the blobs as well.

[mmagliaro]

I'm in the "duckunders are evil" camp.   I am 50, don't have a back problem, but I still find them annoying.
I have had layouts, long ago when I was young, that had them.  I even hated them when I was 17.

I was close to going with one, but a good friend advised me, much like the others in this forum, that
it will only get more irritating, and when I get older, I will really REALLY hate it.  I agree.

On my current project, I could easily have had a 24" minimum (instead of 18"), more mainline running,
and more yard space, in fact, more of everything, if I were willing to use a total "around the room" plan that
would have required a duck-under.   I gave all that up to avoid the duck-under.

[shark_jj]

Louis, I don't think there is a right answer to your question.  A lot depends on the variables of how much space you have and what you want to get out of the layout.  If you have no physical impediments then it is just one of those choices that has to be weighed when we do the pro's and con's of a layout design.  I can share with you my own experience.  My 14 X 24 foot layout had a duckunder at the entrance that was 55 inches high.  In reality a "stoop" under.  It made layout design easier, however, when I decided to redesign and reconstruct the layout I took out the duckunder while the redesign was underway just to see what it felt like to be able to just walk into the layout room.  Wow, what a difference.  The new designs which had incorporated the duckunder were scrapped and new designs were created with turnback loops.  A year into the reconstruction I have no regrets.  The layout room is now more user friendly and I wouldn't build another layout with a duckunder.

[nkalanaga]

I'm with Phil:  Can you replace it with a bridge?  Mine is more of a gate than a swing bridge, being a triangle of plywood, with a piano hinge down the side, and track on top.  It hasn't warped in almost 15 years, and as long as both ends of the layout are solidly mounted, the track should stay in line forever. 

On mine I used ME code 55 flextrak, and laid the track straight across the bridge, while it was latched in place.  At the open end I removed several ties and soldered the rail to a piece (not just a strip) of PC board to make sure the ends stayed in gauge.  Then I cut the track at both ends with a razor saw.  After gapping the PC board the track mates perfectly without sliding sections or rail joiners.  I was actually a little surprised, because the entire bridge is on a curve...

To make sure the open end closes right the board was cut at an angle, rather than straight, so that the ends don't touch until it's closed.  Everything was built, then left to "season" for a month or so, before laying the track.  That way any warping or shrinking was done.  The latch itself is a basic slide-bolt gate or shed hasp, going into a piece of brass tubing that matches the bolt diameter, in turn set into a hole on the end sheet of the layout frame. 

Electrical interlocking is provided by an old telephone switchboard relay used as a mechanic switch.  The bolt pushes the "lever" down on top of the relay, moving the contacts, so the coil on the relay is unused.  Just as well, because the coil connections were broken anyway.  The contacts work fine, and have more SPDT and SPST switches than I need.  A micro switch and a bunch of individual relays would work just as well, but would need relay power.

The idea isn't original, as I read about a similar gate in an ancient model magazine, and I'm sure a lot of others have done the same thing.

[Lemosteam]

Lou,

Any way to hinge the blob to a wall and have it lift out of the way?

[ljudice]

After sleeping over it and pondering it, I think it's time to take the duckunder out.  The bottom is about 4" below 48" or 44" and it is very deep - like 30",  and it's starting to get painful.

The layout is actually sort of a "Q" - around three walls, island in the middle with the bottom part of the "Q" extending further down one wall. The duckunder is at the base of the "Q".   The island is 30" wide, so a 20"x4' extension should be able to accommodate things.   The  blob at the base of the tail of the "Q" will need to be deeper and is right by a door.

From a layout perspective this massively increases the mainline length, though it eliminates a very long branch line.  Given that this is mostly sitting back and watching trains type operation, the tradeoff is no problem. Actually it would remove the big issue of what the heck to do with the "other side" of the island, as well as a scenic dilemma around the bottom of the "Q" where three sections of layout come together.  There should be no issue with 24" curves throughout - it might have to go to 22" in one of the blobs.

My benchwork was built by a carpenter friend who is retired now - but the idea is to study his design and just extend it. It would be nice to do this with some angled edges to help with the flow of people traffic.  My carpentry skills are about zero, so this is going to be a challenge, although I will use his "measure once cut twice" rule.  Or was that "measure twice cut once"???   

[conrail98]

"measure once cut twice" rule.

Believe it or not, that's how I do most of my woodwork.

30" is way too deep for a duckunder or gate/dropleaf so eliminating it is probably worth it in this case. I think myself and nkalanaga were thining it was like a 12" wide section or something smaller,

Phil

[LV LOU]

Lou,get rid of it..I can relate..I was just at a house wit a duckunder,at 57 years old,bad back,bad knees,had the same feeling I woulda I felt if I was looking at a mossy log over a deep gorge,LOL!!

[ljudice]

Going going....   almost gone!!!    8  2x4s picked up at Lowes this afternoon.....


Update:  It's gone.....

[nkalanaga]

Phil:  I was thinking narrower.  In my case, the top is a piece of 1x4, just wide enough to hold the track.  I wasn't thinking of a sceniced moveable section, just a way to get the track from one side to the other.  If Ljudice has a satisfactory solution with no crossing at all so much the better.  I'll agree that duckunders are a pain, and even gates and bridges are inconvenient.

Does anyone remember the old - VERY old - MR cartoon of the two modelers looking at a layout, with one of them saying "The plan said duck under here."?  There was a duck in a washtub under the layout...

[Carolina Northern]

One of my favorites.