Author Topic: Locomotives with sound  (Read 3588 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

rogergperkins

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 854
  • Gender: Male
  • Modeling the B&O in central IL in autumn of 1940's
  • Respect: 0
Re: Locomotives with sound
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2013, 09:27:14 AM »
0
Thanks for comments on sound, cost, systems.
The three Kato GS-4s in my inventory all have the DCC decoder recommended by Kato; one installed by Kato USA in the first release.
I have two later release GS-4s that are in the black paint scheme.  All of mine are relettered for B&O.
From what I have seen/heard on YouTube videos, I am most drawn to the systems that synchronize with speed and load.
I am not enough of a purist to demand whistles and bells that are true to the B&O prototype.

Do I understand that DCC sound decoders require purchase of separate speakers?

superturbine

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 909
  • Gender: Male
  • Respect: +62
Re: Locomotives with sound
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2013, 09:59:53 AM »
0
Roger,
Just so you know.  My TSU is installed inside the speaker enclosure of a MRC speaker, it works really well and saves space. 

jdcolombo

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 2238
  • Respect: +924
Re: Locomotives with sound
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2013, 10:37:52 AM »
0
Thanks for comments on sound, cost, systems.
The three Kato GS-4s in my inventory all have the DCC decoder recommended by Kato; one installed by Kato USA in the first release.
I have two later release GS-4s that are in the black paint scheme.  All of mine are relettered for B&O.
From what I have seen/heard on YouTube videos, I am most drawn to the systems that synchronize with speed and load.
I am not enough of a purist to demand whistles and bells that are true to the B&O prototype.

Do I understand that DCC sound decoders require purchase of separate speakers?

Hi Roger.

Yes you need to buy a speaker.  What I do is buy 14x25mm ovals from DigiKey Corp and build an air-tight speaker enclosure out of 1mm lead sheet.  This makes the final speaker installation 16mm x 27mm, which will fit nicely inside "big steam" tenders.   For cramped installations, I use a 15mm round inside a round enclosure (from Soundtraxx) that I fill with lead shot (make sure to insulate the speaker lead connections!); this provides additional weight.

Here are a few photos of my GS-4 installation.  First is a close-up of the Lenz Silver Mini installed in the boiler:



I use two separate 3mm LEDs for lighting, one for the Mars Light and one for the regular headlight to get rid of the god-awful Kato stock lighting.  This install requires a bit of modification to the Kato pickup board and the light-pipes, but is really pretty straight-forward.

Here is a photo of the TSU-750 and speaker installed in the tender:



Notice the 3mm LED at the far back for the backup light.  The two small yellow rectangular things are 220uf Tantalum chip capacitors that replace the standard round electrolytic cap for keep-alive power for the TSU (to avoid dropouts on less-than-pristine track).

Finally, a photo of the shell with a hole cut above the oil-filler detail for sound egress:



The whole install took about a day, including figuring out how to modify stuff to fit.  But it sounds great (IMHO, the speaker makes all the difference, along with judicious use of the Tsunami equalizer).  Here's an older (non-HD) YouTube video showing the GS-4 running around my old bedroom layout:


John C.

SkipGear

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 2418
  • Gender: Male
  • Respect: +629
Re: Locomotives with sound
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2013, 10:51:44 AM »
0
I have a GS-4 with a Tsunami TSU-750 and a 14 x 25mm oval speaker installed in the tender; I also put a Lenz silver mini for motor control in the boiler.  I agree with the opinion of others that the Tsunami motor control is less than ideal, and in fact use a dual-decoder installation in all my steam locos for this reason.

As for cost, the TSU will run about $120; if you add a separate motor decoder, figure another $30-40, depending on what you use (the Lenz silver mini costs about $40-45 depending on source, but TCS makes a very nice tiny decoder as well, and it's about $30-35).  Speaker and associate small parts might be another $10-15.  I figure that I have at least $160 invested in each sound install. 

I agree that the Walthers Y3 is very nice - I particularly like the open cocks hiss when first starting the loco, which the Tsunami doesn't have.   It also does a much better job simulating the dual-engine articulated sound at speed than the TSU in articulated mode.  But the QSI doesn't have an equalizer, which I use in every TSU install to get the most out of the sound, and the bass is very weak even for an N scale installation - they would have done much better using a single larger oval speaker in a separate enclosure, instead of dual 15mm rounds using the tender shell as a baffle.   A lot of folks swear by the LokSound, but I've never used one because the range of sound files for US steam locos was limited (getting much better, however), and early LokSounds used a strange 100-ohm speaker, which they have now abandoned in favor of a simple 4-ohm.  I'm tempted to try a LokSound for my next sound install, and see how the motor control is and whether it is relatively easy to match chuffs to driver rotation.

The chuff-to-driver rotation issue is a major one, IMHO.  One of the strengths of the Walthers Y3 is that the chuffs are perfectly matched to driver rotation because of the back-emf and other monitoring systems in the QSI decoder.   The TSU is harder to match on its own, much easier to match to a Lenz, which you can separately program with CV's 2, 5 and 6 (or a custom speed table if needed).  A lot of sound installs I've seen on video didn't have very good driver-to-chuff matching, which I think destroys the illusion.  But it's hard to get there - I'm pretty careful about matching at low speed, where it is most obvious, and then kind of fudge things at 40 smph and up, where the drivers are generally moving so fast it's hard to tell.  But I agree with Tony that if QSI came out with an N-scale size (something about the size of the LokSound micro or TSU-750), I'd use it in a hearbeat.

John C.

John,
 We need to contact QSI and see if they have any plans for a smaller decoder. I would be happy with the decocder out of the Y-3. There is a little blurb on their site though that says they do not produce OEM decoders, they only license their technology to manufactures to use in the production of OEM so who knows where the Y-3 decoder actually came from.

I've installed two of the older Loksounds and unless their new micro has changed, would not use them. My biggest pet peeves are the $200 programmer needed to upload sound files and absolutely horrible transition, or lack there of, from yard speed to mainline speed in the chuffs.

BTW - Here is the current state of the Digitrax decoder. There was a new sound project recently released that added tons of features and one of the creative members on the Digitrax sound group used that to build an even better project.


This in an HO loco but the same file will load into the N scale version.
Tony Hines

jdcolombo

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 2238
  • Respect: +924
Re: Locomotives with sound
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2013, 11:14:48 AM »
0
Very impressive, Tony.

Might have to try one of these if one of my Berk installations dies . . .

John C.

Cajonpassfan

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 5370
  • Respect: +1953
Re: Locomotives with sound
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2013, 12:13:32 PM »
0
Roger,
Just so you know.  My TSU is installed inside the speaker enclosure of a MRC speaker, it works really well and saves space.

Jason, you mentioned this before, and if it works without diminishing sound quality, its one of those "why didn't I think of that" ideas. The space saving simplicity alone would be worth it. I assume you install the speaker cone-in, butt-out? What size MRC speaker/enclosure are you using? And since the TSU's tend to run HOT anyway, do you not have overheating issues because the decoder is inside an unventilated space?
I'll try this approach on the next steam install I do, but am a little nervous about the heat issue...
Regards, Otto




rogergperkins

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 854
  • Gender: Male
  • Modeling the B&O in central IL in autumn of 1940's
  • Respect: 0
Re: Locomotives with sound
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2013, 03:06:36 PM »
0
I have hired someone to install all the DCC decoders in locomotives that did not come with DCC.  I would be in the same situation with having DCC sound installed in one or more of the Kato GS-4s.  My only experience with owning a DCC sound equipped locomotive are the BLI E units; I like the sound feature as an additional dimension of running trains.

I was not impressed with the Berkshire HO whistle sounds.  I have Bose speakers on my computer, so general sound quality is very good.
Whistle sounded like a little dog with a sore throat barking.
 ;)
« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 03:31:13 PM by rogergperkins »

superturbine

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 909
  • Gender: Male
  • Respect: +62
Re: Locomotives with sound
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2013, 03:33:49 PM »
0
Jason, you mentioned this before, and if it works without diminishing sound quality, its one of those "why didn't I think of that" ideas. The space saving simplicity alone would be worth it. I assume you install the speaker cone-in, butt-out? What size MRC speaker/enclosure are you using? And since the TSU's tend to run HOT anyway, do you not have overheating issues because the decoder is inside an unventilated space?
I'll try this approach on the next steam install I do, but am a little nervous about the heat issue...
Regards, Otto

MRC-1513   MRC 1513 16mm x 35mm Rectangle 8-Ohm Speaker w/ Enclosure
16mm x 35mm (0.63" x 1.37") Rectangle 8-Ohm Speaker with Enclosure.
Compare At: $15.98

Here is my Installation, TSU 750 installed in the MRC speaker with enclosure.  Of note:  most of the time I turn the volumn to half because this set up is so loud.   Capacitor is not shown in the pic and does not fit into the enclosure.

 
 
 
 

cnw mike

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 73
  • Respect: 0
Re: Locomotives with sound
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2013, 03:48:12 PM »
0
Loksound has by far the best motor control of any sound decoder. Their diesel sounds are very well done, but I do agree their steam leaves a bit to be desired. Tsunami is king when it come to steam. But their low speed motor control is so terrible I've given up even bothering with it. It's really a shame since dual installs aren't always an option.

peteski

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 31687
  • Gender: Male
  • Honorary Resident Curmudgeon
  • Respect: +4529
    • Coming (not so) soon...
Re: Locomotives with sound
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2013, 07:17:54 PM »
0
I've never heard of them before, but am always looking for more options.  Do you have an video of your Mallet?
That is why I mentioned QSI and ZIMO - the more choices, the better.
I do not have any videos of my locomotives. I also believe that no video can fully demonstrate the actual sound you hear in person. THis is especially true with the tiny speakers we use in N scale. Recording that sound through a microphone further degraded the sound quality (which due to the small speaker size is not all that wonderful to begin with).

If I could buy a QSI decoder that would fit, I would have done it a long time ago. I love my Y-3. The problem is they don't make one yet. The revolutions are discontinued and there is talk on the website of an N scale size decoder but nothing concrete yet.

I hear a lot of talk about Zimo's but have never seen one in action. They require a $175 programmer to install sound files which makes them rough to test out if you like them or not.

I was able to test fit both QSI Revolution-U and Titan-U in the Kato GS-4 tender shell and I'm pretty sure that they also fit in the FVM Hiawatha tender shell.  I agree that of QSI ever releases the smaller N scale decoder, I'll be all over it!

You're right about ZIMO - everything about them is pricey. I only got mine because it was factory installed in a locomotive I bought.

John,
 We need to contact QSI and see if they have any plans for a smaller decoder. I would be happy with the decocder out of the Y-3. There is a little blurb on their site though that says they do not produce OEM decoders, they only license their technology to manufactures to use in the production of OEM so who knows where the Y-3 decoder actually came from.


QSI does produce their own decoders. Currently it is the Titan and in the past Revolution.  As far as Y-3 decoder goes, it is a QSI decoder. Even the manual included with the model states this.  As far as who actually manufactured the hardware, who cares?  I think that by "licensing" QSI means that they will provide a circuit diagram and the microprocessor custom programmed with the QSI firmware (operating system) inside the chip. That is the brain of the decoder. Any manufacturer can pay the licensing fee then spin the circuit board and install the QSI chip on it. The important thing is that it will still be a QSI decoder under the covers.


I agree that the Walthers Y3 is very nice - I particularly like the open cocks hiss when first starting the loco, which the Tsunami doesn't have.   It also does a much better job simulating the dual-engine articulated sound at speed than the TSU in articulated mode.  But the QSI doesn't have an equalizer, which I use in every TSU install to get the most out of the sound, and the bass is very weak even for an N scale installation - they would have done much better using a single larger oval speaker in a separate enclosure, instead of dual 15mm rounds using the tender shell as a baffle.

The chuff-to-driver rotation issue is a major one, IMHO.  One of the strengths of the Walthers Y3 is that the chuffs are perfectly matched to driver rotation because of the back-emf and other monitoring systems in the QSI decoder.

That is exactly why I like the QSI decoder. But I think that the dual speaker setup is quite satisfactory.  I can live without the equalizer (since the microscopic speakers we use in N will never produce enough bass anyway).

« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 07:19:26 PM by peteski »
. . . 42 . . .

Mike Madonna

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 440
  • Respect: +75
Re: Locomotives with sound
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2013, 09:09:49 PM »
0
Why nobody mentions QSI sound decoders? My Walthers Mallet with a QSI Revolution decoder sounds awesome and the throttle control is also very good.

How about the ZIMO decoders? I just got a Fleischmann steamer with a factory-installed ZIMO decoder and the sound is also excellent. I haven't run it long enough yet to get a good feel for the throttle control but it seems ok so far.

Peteski, the decoder in the Walther's is a nice unit. I passed on the Zimo & QSI since they did NOT offer the correct SP Cab Forward sound file. The "demo" video was basically the decoder installed "as is" with no tweaks to any CVs.
Mike
SOUTHERN PACIFIC Coast Division 1953
Santa Margarita Sub

Mike Madonna

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 440
  • Respect: +75
Re: Locomotives with sound
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2013, 09:18:05 PM »
0
I have a GS-4 with a Tsunami TSU-750 and a 14 x 25mm oval speaker installed in the tender; I also put a Lenz silver mini for motor control in the boiler.  I agree with the opinion of others that the Tsunami motor control is less than ideal, and in fact use a dual-decoder installation in all my steam locos for this reason.

As for cost, the TSU will run about $120; if you add a separate motor decoder, figure another $30-40, depending on what you use (the Lenz silver mini costs about $40-45 depending on source, but TCS makes a very nice tiny decoder as well, and it's about $30-35).  Speaker and associate small parts might be another $10-15.  I figure that I have at least $160 invested in each sound install. 

I agree that the Walthers Y3 is very nice - I particularly like the open cocks hiss when first starting the loco, which the Tsunami doesn't have.   It also does a much better job simulating the dual-engine articulated sound at speed than the TSU in articulated mode.  But the QSI doesn't have an equalizer, which I use in every TSU install to get the most out of the sound, and the bass is very weak even for an N scale installation - they would have done much better using a single larger oval speaker in a separate enclosure, instead of dual 15mm rounds using the tender shell as a baffle.   A lot of folks swear by the LokSound, but I've never used one because the range of sound files for US steam locos was limited (getting much better, however), and early LokSounds used a strange 100-ohm speaker, which they have now abandoned in favor of a simple 4-ohm.  I'm tempted to try a LokSound for my next sound install, and see how the motor control is and whether it is relatively easy to match chuffs to driver rotation.

The chuff-to-driver rotation issue is a major one, IMHO.  One of the strengths of the Walthers Y3 is that the chuffs are perfectly matched to driver rotation because of the back-emf and other monitoring systems in the QSI decoder.   The TSU is harder to match on its own, much easier to match to a Lenz, which you can separately program with CV's 2, 5 and 6 (or a custom speed table if needed).  A lot of sound installs I've seen on video didn't have very good driver-to-chuff matching, which I think destroys the illusion.  But it's hard to get there - I'm pretty careful about matching at low speed, where it is most obvious, and then kind of fudge things at 40 smph and up, where the drivers are generally moving so fast it's hard to tell.  But I agree with Tony that if QSI came out with an N-scale size (something about the size of the LokSound micro or TSU-750), I'd use it in a hearbeat.

John C.

Hi John, I took the time to view your video of your Tsunami install on the IM AC. I agree the chuff rate is key. The Loksound has very nice motor control and their sound file is, in my humble opinion, spot on. They offer two CVs for the "standard" chuff rate AND two CVs for the "articulated" chuff rate. Mind you, in the "demo" video, I did NOT adjust ANY CVs... yet.  ;)
Mike
SOUTHERN PACIFIC Coast Division 1953
Santa Margarita Sub

SkipGear

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 2418
  • Gender: Male
  • Respect: +629
Re: Locomotives with sound
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2013, 11:31:11 PM »
0
Petski,
 I didn't mean that QSI does not build their own decoders, it just says that they do not build the decoders for OEM installs. They license the technology to the manufacturer and let them deal with the production. The point was that the decoders for the Y-3 were a one time run for that loco not produced by QSI, it just used QSI tech.

 I have a friend with a few QSI equipped HO loco's from Walthers and they too are incredible. They even talk to you when programming by reading back the CV changes as you make them as a way to confirm that what you changed was what you thought it was. Address programming is the only quirky part at all with them. You actually set the address in non traditional CV's then write to a 3rd CV to flash them in to the address CV's.

 I am really tempted to try and shoe horn a QSI into something but the onlything I have large enough on the workbench is an EM-1. By the time I actually get to the point where it needs a decoder, they may come up with an N scale version or Digitrax may get their rumored new improved decoders out to market.

One thing not mentioned is the latest MRC decoders. I have played with the recent 16bit HO decoders and it makes me want to try the N scale versions. Their chuff rate matching is very good and you can stall the loco and the chuffs stop. The only thing lacking is accurate sound options. You have to pick from their generic list of chuff, bells and whistles.
Tony Hines

Cajonpassfan

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 5370
  • Respect: +1953
Re: Locomotives with sound
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2013, 10:57:14 PM »
0
MRC-1513   MRC 1513 16mm x 35mm Rectangle 8-Ohm Speaker w/ Enclosure
16mm x 35mm (0.63" x 1.37") Rectangle 8-Ohm Speaker with Enclosure.
Compare At: $15.98

Thanks Jason!
I found two on feeBay @$11.34 ea., including enclosures; they are on their way to Cucamonga (Locomotive  Works). Totally biased and unscientific testing to follow! We  proudly "play it by ear" here...:)
Regards, Otto K.

Mike Madonna

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 440
  • Respect: +75
Re: Locomotives with sound
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2013, 10:44:10 PM »
0
Here's a short "demo" of my latest project.

/>


Here's another short "demo" clip....
Mike
SOUTHERN PACIFIC Coast Division 1953
Santa Margarita Sub