Author Topic: "Modern" sealed windows in heavyweights  (Read 2318 times)

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Puddington

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"Modern" sealed windows in heavyweights
« on: September 30, 2011, 11:45:08 AM »
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During the re-building of many heavyweight cars (prodominantly sleepers) the old heavyweight style windows (those that opened) were replaced with sealed windows as part of the air conditioning of these cars. The sealed windows were often similar to those used in lightweight cars; ie: rounded corners, double paned.

I want to "modernize" a heavyweight car for an "R" class Canadian Pacific Sleeper (8-1-2) but am struggling with the windows. I have considered making an "overlay" out of 0.010 styrene and cutting the windows into that, drilling out the old windows and sanding down the carside inbetween the mid rail and upper rail but don't know if that's the best approach....

Any brain waves out there ?

Thanks in advance.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 11:51:55 AM by Puddington »
Model railroading isn't saving my life, but it's providing me moments of joy not normally associated with my current situation..... Train are good!

Alwyn Cutmore

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Re: "Modern" sealed windows in heavyweights
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2011, 11:55:27 PM »
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Hi Puddington,

The only thing I can think of is to find someone who does lazer cutting and get the sides cut from 15thou plasticard. They can do it fairly quickly and if you are supplying the artwork.drawings it should not cost all that much. Maybe there is someone on this forum who does lazer cutting.

Regards

Al
Slobbering Pennsy Shark Nose Freak
Al Cutmore
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Australia

sirenwerks

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Re: "Modern" sealed windows in heavyweights
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2011, 07:03:15 AM »
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Or someone with a Silhouette SD. The software that comes with those is free and fairly easy to learn, so you could provide the file and make it trouble free for your host.
Now seeking Pacific NW N scalers to create a Modutrak-style modular club featuring NP's shared mainline between Seattle and Portland. PM me if interested.

SkipGear

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Re: "Modern" sealed windows in heavyweights
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2011, 09:14:17 AM »
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I was thinking along the lines of the vinyl cutter. Similar to the idea of the laser horizons sides. I could cut a vinyl paint mask that you could apply to a piece of lexan. It would mask off where the windows would be. Paint, peel the window masks, then apply the side. May be sort of two dimentional though. You may be able to take it a step farther and do two layers of vinyl over the lexan, one for window gaskets, then a mask over that. That would give some depth to the windows.
Tony Hines

wm3798

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Re: "Modern" sealed windows in heavyweights
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2011, 09:32:15 AM »
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Such a product would be a boon for those of us pining for a 1960's/pre Amtrak B&O passenger train.  The B&O was always a bit threadbare, but put on good appearances by updating it's crusty old fleet with sealed windows.  I always thought an etched brass strip to install over the twin windows of most heavy weight cars would be the answer.

I like the idea of the vinyl over lexan, but painting it would be a bit dicey, I would think.  It would be nice if someone would just tool a car set to represent the 20 or so years that cars looked like this.  I've often been tempted by fire sale prices of Rivarossi sets painted in B&O, but they used the wrong colors on many of them (blue too light, grey too dark) and the pre-war windows just lose me completely.

Lee
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jmlaboda

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Re: "Modern" sealed windows in heavyweights
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2011, 09:51:01 AM »
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Hope no one minds if I offer a little prototype perspective...

Both the Canadian National and Canadian Pacific made great use of older cars, especially so sleepers, by modernizing them to better match lightweight equipment that the lines were acquiring.  It gave the roads cars that would be appealing to the traveling public while extending the usefulness of these old soldiers for nearly two more decades.  Photos of both lines' cars can be found at the following pages:

http://passcarphotos.info/Indices/CN1.htm
http://passcarphotos.info/Indices/CP1.htm

In the U.S. the modernization of heavyweight sleepers wasn't nearly as common, with only a few roads really making an effort to rebuild the cars (at least not as sleepers).  While a number of roads dabbled a bit with the Betterment design which incorperated a round tapered roof and streamline skirting (and often steamline paint schemes to match) , and others who rebuilt the roofs to a streamline appearance (without the taper) and sometimes lacking the skirting, only the B&O and PRR really made any effort to rebuild the older sleepers to a more streamline appearance with the sealed windows, sometimes with the original clerestory roof being retained.

Examples of "Betterment" cars:
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=242939
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/p15330coll22&CISOPTR=43982&CISOBOX=1&REC=1
http://rr-fallenflags.org/kcs/kcs-pss-m.jpg
http://web.archive.org/web/20060828022713/http://www.jefflubchanskycpa.com/AMT16500NBRUNSWICK-AUG27-99DIGI4.jpg

Examples of Modernized cars:
http://cnrphotos.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=55572  Note smooth sides.
http://cnrphotos.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=55064  Note smooth sides.
http://cnrphotos.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=55068  Note smooth sides.
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2047432  Note smooth sides.
http://cnrphotos.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=16690  Note smooth sides.
http://cnrphotos.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=72534  Note smooth sides.
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=556672
http://cnrphotos.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=73443
http://cnrphotos.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=55617
http://cnrphotos.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=15409
http://cnrphotos.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=54839
http://cnrphotos.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=54843
http://cnrphotos.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=55693
http://cnrphotos.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=55723
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1805917
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2779777080053145380QcFeJw
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2116672610053145380SrfZPB
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m63/nighttrain00/CPRosser.jpg
http://parlor-car.tripod.com/cprail/Rosser.jpg
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=327923

And then there are the modernized cars by roads such as the C&EI, IC and others that were built to a lightweight appearance, though, no sleepers were involved.

The differences in the way the CN did some of their cars could make it a bit easier to do them, since some did have smooth sides, but you are still faced with the issue of how to replicate the roof.  You are already familiar with the fabrication of smooth sides, which you have a few examples of already.  Its worth nothing that, unlike B&O and PRR examples, the windows on the cars with the riveted sides are smaller than the original windows in height, which will mean that the insert should include this.

If I were pursuing such a detail by means of a machine, I would be to try and find someone who could draw up the window inserts (necessary for either laser cutting or milling) and someone who could do the actual windows.  Such would likely involve measuring the MT window openings and figuring out from there what an appropriate size of the window would be.  My preferred method would be to use laser cutting, since this should produce a proper bead around the window opening, but either method would work well.  The same would be true if you were to do the work yourself and likely would cost less but also raise the aggravation level a good ways.

I wish I could give you photos to go by as far as the B&O 8-1-2 and PRR cars goes but unfortunately none can be found on the web (at least not by me).  Thankfully at least the Canadian cars are well represented... which at least loans themselves to ideas on how to built them.

While not a sleeper the Frisco had some of the most interesting cars...
http://condrenrails.com/Frisco%20Catalog/Others/FR535.jpg
[url]http://www.frisco.org/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=3922&d=1150981895[/.url]

Mark5

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Re: "Modern" sealed windows in heavyweights
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2011, 12:05:32 PM »
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I don't think N&W did any such treatment to heavyweights (other than adding "rounded" roofs to some cars) but they certainly did some major alterations to the heavyweights that were modified for business car use:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=146486


Mark

jmlaboda

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Re: "Modern" sealed windows in heavyweights
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2011, 06:40:08 PM »
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N&W 100 has come a long ways...

http://www.images.technomuses.ca/images_site/RailCollection/Originals/MAT000218.jpg

As far as it goes, a number of N&W's heavyweight dining cars also had sealed thermopane windows applied as well... while coaches typically gained only sealed window inserts in place of their sash windows.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 11:31:32 PM by jmlaboda »

SkipGear

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Re: "Modern" sealed windows in heavyweights
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2011, 12:20:59 AM »
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I like the idea of the vinyl over lexan, but painting it would be a bit dicey, I would think.  It would be nice if someone would just tool a car set to represent the 20 or so years that cars looked like this.  I've often been tempted by fire sale prices of Rivarossi sets painted in B&O, but they used the wrong colors on many of them (blue too light, grey too dark) and the pre-war windows just lose me completely.

Lee

Painting over the vinyl is not really a problem. I can get a matte finish vinyl that will paint well. I use a low tack version for paint masks. I may even be able to find some matte black so that the window gaskets would not need to be painted. On the flip side of that. I have been experimenting with printing directly on clear acetate to make windows, it could be taken farther and print a whole side at once if you could get the colors right.
Tony Hines

Shipsure

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Re: "Modern" sealed windows in heavyweights
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2011, 08:54:36 AM »
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contact me at work:   Joe@micro-trains.com   I think I can help you out

Joe



quote author=Puddington link=topic=24673.msg242931#msg242931 date=1317397508]
During the re-building of many heavyweight cars (prodominantly sleepers) the old heavyweight style windows (those that opened) were replaced with sealed windows as part of the air conditioning of these cars. The sealed windows were often similar to those used in lightweight cars; ie: rounded corners, double paned.

I want to "modernize" a heavyweight car for an "R" class Canadian Pacific Sleeper (8-1-2) but am struggling with the windows. I have considered making an "overlay" out of 0.010 styrene and cutting the windows into that, drilling out the old windows and sanding down the carside inbetween the mid rail and upper rail but don't know if that's the best approach....

Any brain waves out there ?

Thanks in advance.
[/quote]

jmlaboda

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Re: "Modern" sealed windows in heavyweights
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2011, 07:25:46 PM »
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You honestly would do better using .005" thickness since the indentation of the window openings isn't all that deep.  This way you should be able to trim around the opening (on paired window frames) and set this in to sit atop the remaining part of the frame.  It is what I will be doing, though I am unsure of exactly what will be done since I haven't yet started any sort of work on it.  Need to get a couple of MT observation cars first...