A Potential Solution to Small Scale Sound

[sirenwerks]

I may be thinking out my a$$hat here, being the one who presents at ops sessions as obviously new to DCC, but I was thinking this morning about the issue that creates the desire for sound-equipped boxcars, etc. - namely, the small size of some N scale (and Z and below) locos preventing (quality) sound from being installed.

Aside from the obvious current equation of 1 loco = 1 decoder = more $ for manufacturers, why don't DCC sound system manufacturers just put the sound (speaker) in the throttle, rather than each loco? Let's face it, the one who appreciates the sound of the lash-up I'm operating most is me. The next guy only cares about his loco(s) sound. So having the speaker pointing at the operator won't take away from the primary enjoyment factor of such a design. And throttle-mounted sound would allow for a larger speaker - offering better sound quality - and loco owners wouldn't have to fuss with the extra steps sound decoder installation requires - especially in losing the much-needed loco weight. The added value of such a system and obvious lower cost (than today's decoder based sound SYSTEM) would be a definite selling point and since the system (in the throttle) is already recognizing assigned loco numbers (and corresponding sound) and consists (and corresponding soundSSS), there's no change in effort of blowing the sound through the throttle-based speaker v. the loco-based speaker.

Also... What's up with the loco-oriented sounds? Why are they pushing loco-envy on us? How about the screeches, thuds, and pings that go with passing trains? Does anyone make a sensor activated stationary sound unit that could be layout mounted, say on a curve, and would provide the sound of wheel screeches as a train passes (and correspond said sound to train length)? This type of sound portrayal, IMO, would be kick butt.

[TrainCat2]

Interesting, but how would you synchronize the chuff to the actual rotation of the axles? This would require constant 2-way communication from the locomotive(s) to the throttle eating up bandwidth. When the loco goes into a tunnel or into hidden staging, the sound would continue to come out of the throttle (at the same intensity) even though the locomotive is no longer visible.

Not trying to rain on the idea, just my first thoughts.

[wcfn100]

A handheld speaker system would be fairly worthless at a show for the public.  Besides that, some of the 'cool' factor stems from the fact that the sound does come from the locomotive.


Jason

[TiVoPrince]

Depends 
a lot on where you fancy yourself in the picture.  Consider these options.

A.
If you are driving the train the sound might not change that much except RPM, bell, horn, assorted loco sounds.  Passing through tunnels or terrain would certainly affect volume and echoes.  Synchronized grade crossing passes and the like are necessary to give you an 'in the cab' experience.
B.
If you are a bystander interposing buildings and distance along with doppler effects are important.  Making the sounds coming from the sound source important.

Duplex communiction to a 'soundbug' (no motor control) like system clipped to the back of a throttle could be a very cool thing in situation A above.  Having a small vibrating pager type motor that simulated engine vibration might work too but could need to be turned off after awhile as potentially annoying.  I'm sort of thinking something like the Digitrax PR3 sound test for decoders where the motor is not used being placed in your hand.  Adding a lot more sound files from different locos motor sounds,  barking dogs, squealing brakes, commuter announcements and the like could live on an SD memory card plugged into the backpack, ready for use at a moments notice.

Using infrared traps or transponding/occupancy zoned locations could be used to trigger all sorts of sounds or effects on the layout or in your hand with some effort...

[wm3798]

That's an interesting idea, Bryan, and I can definitely see this working for something like a yard switcher or on a local freight, where the issues of speed and distance and synchronization are less important than those basic accel/deccel, coupler crashes, air hoses etc.  That's really the only time I like sound anyway. 

I find that when I've got three diesels on the point of a heavy train, they make plenty of "thrum" by themselves.  In fact, I think I'll go upstairs and enjoy a little of that right now.

Lee

[sirenwerks]

Interesting, but how would you synchronize the chuff to the actual rotation of the axles? This would require constant 2-way communication from the locomotive(s) to the throttle eating up bandwidth. When the loco goes into a tunnel or into hidden staging, the sound would continue to come out of the throttle (at the same intensity) even though the locomotive is no longer visible.

Not trying to rain on the idea, just my first thoughts.

That's why I threw the idea out there. No rain taken.

And I hadn't thought about the need for synchronization, as diesels don't need it (that's all I own, well almost all). As far as the tunnel or hidden staging thing, well... the guy holding the throttle's the one who's driving the train, right? Hopefully he's going with the train when it travels into the tunnel or into staging as in, he's in the cab and the sound would not change for him aside from echo. Again, AFAICT, the sound's for the engineer more than the people standing around.

If it's a crowd issue, maybe the engineer could just wear an even larger speaker hanging on gawdy gold chains around his neck (the MRR homie factor) or sewn into his engineer cap. Really, what would be the difference between a speaker in a train and one in a cap? They're both silly. I mean, here we are trying to get 'big' sound out of these tiny little speakers. From what I've seen/heard, the loco sounds get drowned out by crowd noise when you're a spectator anyway. Maybe that's different for the engineer, but then we get back to the idea of who the sound is for anyway. I have yet to be at an ops session where the crew noise doesn't get to the point of drowning out any hope of anything else being heard. Is there a layout where silence is a rule, so one can hear their train? Now that's silly.

Back to the steam issue, are loco-based sound decoders that synchronized as to accurately match the movement of piston and side rods? Point in case (and I've never seen this to know) when a steamer with sound stalls on dirty track, does the sound keep going even though the loco's not? If so, obviously the sound decoders aren't that synchronized as one would hope. Couldn't the throttle know the approximate movement and fudge the sound, so there's no need for the back-and-forth communication?

As for the doppler effect regarding model locos and their real-life engineers, I just assume the engineer follows his train, hence the throttle/sound would travel too. I know I'm right there with my train. That's why I am there, to run trains, not get distracted by other shiny objects that make me walk away while my train goes shuttling off in the other direction.

[Pray59]

Actually, I think the handheld sound could actually be developed and brought to the model railroading community faster than a new decoder...

If you have DCC with a computer connected to it, run JMRI, and broadcast a Withrottle to an Android or Iphone, then it's just a simple matter to add synchronized sound to the Withrottle or Engine driver apps.

I myself would like to use a Surroundtraxx under the layout zone based sound system, and stream hotbox detectors and railroad radio to the phone throttles.

-Robert

[up1950s]

Ok here's another a$$hats thought . Have the throttle current draw and voltage feed the chuff intensity and rate to a set of headphones . Some chip wizard ought to be able to come up with a TX and RX board either hard wired or RF'ed linked .

[esa123]

I like your thoughts and where this thread is going. On small layouts I've used computer speakers with multiple input headphone jack splitters to allow for "ambient sounds" (construction equipment, birds chirping, cars, etc. that I just plug multiple ipod devices into and play a different track on each.). This works out great for those viewing the layout, however having sound in a throttle (with some rumble effects like an X-box controller or high bass little speakers) would really be nice. From an acoustics standpoint it would make sense to the engineer because the distance to his "engine sound" - i.e. where he's holding the throttle - would always be the same. It's not like you couldn't just program a doppler effect into the sound output of the throttle. Push button X and doppler approaches from the right, button Y and it comes from the left. The same with other effects like flange squeal and such.

Good thoughts,
Erik

[Nato]

           I have a hand held sound system that I have owned for about 6 years now. Of course it is a very crude version sold by Model Power. About half the size of a current Cel Phone,similar shape,small speaker on top,a row of red square keys (buttons) below speaker. The sounds you get are a bell, corney sounding steam whistle,wheel click on rails, chuffing steamer,horn,or all sounds played in sequence. The bell actually sounds pretty good at an op session on a friends HO non sound equiped railroad with device concieled in the palm of my hand people were wondering how my GP40 suddenly had sound. I believe the same sound chip or similar is used in the Lionel Trains wall clock and wrist watch. I also own a Steam Sound Car. I don not remember who sold them,mech with NCel Battery is in an N scale live stock car. A cam& wiper on one axel is used,when car is switched on produces a Ting Ting or Ching Ching sound that kind of sounds like a steam loco.Number of Tings (chuffs) increases or decreases with the car speed. Con Cor has decided that to have sound in their new DCC version Gas Turbine the sound will have to be in the tender,sound and non tenders will be sold. For the U50 diesel they say sound will also have to be in the tender which they admit is un proto,I would suggest a 1960's 70's 50 foot Yellow box car with map logo for this loco. The MRC Symphony sound unit (I have one) sounds very nice,but it needs a cordless remote to activate speakers at various locations on a layout. Nate Goodman (Nato). Salt Lake,Utah.

[DKS]

Wireless headphones would be the ideal solution from my perspective. I'd last about ten minutes max in a room where there was any kind of sound system, onboard or otherwise, before I'd run from the building screaming.

[TrainCat2]

I'd last about ten minutes max in a room where there was any kind of sound system, onboard or otherwise, before I'd run from the building screaming.

Note to members . . . Now we know how to keep David busy designing new Detail Parts instead of visiting layouts.  ;D

[sirenwerks]

Wireless headphones would be the ideal solution from my perspective. I'd last about ten minutes max in a room where there was any kind of sound system, onboard or otherwise, before I'd run from the building screaming.

Having Aspergers Syndrome, I'm somewhat the same way; too many sensory stimulation inputs (sound being my primary irritant) and I'm cowering in a corner or heading for the door. You should see me in shopping malls at Xmas (actually you won't, by design).

That being said, we design layouts and their rooms for other sensory factors - namely visual, using lighting, in/out of scene track planning elements, and view blocks. With sound as it stands right now, we gotta crank it up to get even the bad stuff out. With good sound quality, we won't have to overcompensate (sounds like a comb-over). And if sound becomes a real important factor in the market, designing or retrofitting a room for sound may be the next step. Baffling a room, using directional speakers, or shielding to limit the travel of irrelevant sound - say, the ambient sound of a creek on the other side of the aisle's backdrop - would be tools to limit the number and importance of sound elements one would hear in their immediate position.

Another sound aspect that needs to be designed into layouts is communication, especially dispatcher to train communication. Headset communication systems need to be affordable and marketed, most certainly... nothing worse than a room full of grown-up boys trying to scream over each other.

[pnolan48]

A number of people have suggested mounting bass speakers at various points around the layout, to complement the non-bassy output of onboard speakers. The theory is that bass is non- or at least less-directional than midtones and tenor. I believe some have tracked a train around the layout varying the sound to the speakers. I witnessed this type of system on Bob Ellis's layout in Florida and was very impressed.

My a$$hat thinking--if we can construct synthetic aperture antennae (receivers), couldn't we also construct synthetic aperture transmitters? Or, like the systems used on ships to drive away pirates, superimpose our chosen sounds on a carrier signal. I've watched prototype "crowd control" systems using that principle, and that is also impressive--and a little scary.

[wcfn100]

Or, like the systems used on ships to drive away pirates, superimpose our chosen sounds on a carrier signal.

Hit Ed with the brown note.   
 
Jason