What price too much?

[sirenwerks]

A while back my frustration over the lack of a well-detailed transition-era suitable flat was making me crazy. As iconic and wildly affordable as the Atlas flat is, its over-sized stake pockets are fast becoming an eyesore feature in comparison with the fine detail of newer cars. As well-detailed as the Micro-Trains models are, their side-mount brake wheel design is an anomaly - the end-mount brake wheel was a much, much more popular design. And as welcomed the Athearn and Walthers models are for more recent periods, their welded construction design limits back dating.

I brought this need up to a manufacturer recently and was pleasantly surprised by the considerable interest shown in producing such a model - a transition-era, end brake wheel,  50+foot flat featuring riveted design. As no specific prototype is dominating design consideration at the moment, there's no list of roadnames being bandied about. In fact, a generic design may be the final outcome. But, this manufacturer (which wishes to remain anonymous) wants to incorporate product features many modelers want, and would likely go to lengths to adopt themselves. However, this consideration to detail is reflected in the proposed model's expected retail price. As proposed, the model would feature:

• Plastic body casting (allowing for fine rivet & stake pocket detail)
• Die cast under frame (for weight)
• 2 die cut removable weights (for more weight & allowing easy removal for extreme deck weathering)
• Delrin under body details & brake wheel
• Etched metal stirrups
• Trucks with FVM metal wheels
• Body mount Micro-Train couplers

All of this for an estimated $24.95 retail price, with street price probably kicking down to around $20.

With all of this being said and the current economy aside, the question is: How much reasonable interest is there for such an effort at that price point? What are your thoughts?

Bryan Bohn

[wcfn100]

Well, first of all, there were welded and cast steel flatcars in the 40's.

Here's my 'generic flat' wish list.

70 ton 53' 6" prototype.

Proper deck height or as close as possible.

Removable weights i.e. nothing metal (non-detail) that can't be removed.

Jason

[bbussey]

I think any car that is tooled well and can feature at least a moderate amount of prototypical schemes and includes body-mounted couplers and prototypical ride height would do well at that price point, including a 53' riveted flatcar.  The key is the quality of detail in the carbody tooling.  The underbody detail isn't as important, since the car would be upright on the layout 99% of the time.  I would even consider laser-cut wood decks over separate underbody detail.  If the model has accurate dimensions and the detail is crisp, it will sell.

While in another scale, the InterMountain HO 53' flatcar is a perfect example.  They can't keep it in stock because it is a nicely detailed model.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

I don't know, I feel like flat cars just don't quite generate the same excitement that boxes, tanks, gons and hoppers do.

Against that, I think $20 might be tough.

But I could be very wrong.

[wcfn100]

I don't know, I feel like flat cars just don't quite generate the same excitement that boxes, tanks, gons and hoppers do.

Against that, I think $20 might be tough.

But I could be very wrong.

They do when your road hauled cars for a John Deere, American Crane and Hoist, and one of, if not the largest gypsum (drywall) deposits in the country.

Also, in the 60's many 50' flats were still being used in intermodal.

Jason

[lock4244]

Or if you're CP, 55 foot cars were in use as TOFC and COFC flats into the 21st Century. And not just at home, but they ran all over the US on CR, NS, UP, BNSF, CSX to varying degrees.

I'd have to agree that flatcars are ignored, unless they are sexy flats in TOFC service like the ones BLMA are doing or the venerable MTL 89' car. IM's 60' flat is a real beauty, but more are needed. A $20 street might kill it though, Ed's right... that much for a flat is a tough sell against finely detailed tank cars, etc. IMO, IM hit the nail on the head with their 60' wood deck flat... nice looking car with body mounted MTL couplers, good ride height, very nicely weighted, and a street price that'll get them onto most layouts.

[chessie system fan]

-FWIW, there's the DI/GHQ model.

-I'd be down for one if it was done for a chessie road.

-Leaving off the FVM wheels could lower the price further.

-The only way for it to be close to the correct height would be for the MT coupler pocket to be integrated with the frame, not just screwed to the bottom or anything like that.

[sirenwerks]

Point taken about ride height. I'll pass it on as a major factor, though I imagine it was something that was already taken for granted as being included.

One of the drawbacks of the IM car, as well as the Walthers car and GHQ one, is the one-piece metal body. This design makes it much more difficult to weather/replace the deck. This car's design would remedy this. Further, the metal bodies make it more difficult to produce finer detail and, for the modeler, difficult to modify a car body. So, do we compromise?

And I'm with Jason. For modern modelers, the flat equates more to intermodal. For transition era, flat cars were still producing considerable and interesting car load revenue. Additionally, flat cars are a necessity on par with boxcars for western modelers, where lumber moved in/on both at significant levels.

Perhaps my question should be is N scale ready to kick it up a notch in terms of expectations or would we rather whine some more about not having the same level of quality as HO modelers? Or... If you add up the time and money many of us spend on swapping out or fixing couplers, changing wheel sets, and adding some finer detail, is it worth it to pay some extra and get all that straight out of the box?

[johnhale]

I would even consider laser-cut wood decks over separate underbody detail. 

If the flat car had a laser-cut wood deck, and was nicely details as outlined before, I would by several to replace my existing ones that serve as TOFC service.

[Philip H]

From my perspective, I'd be in.  The FVM wheels are not a necessity - if the car was designed right, couldn't you get decent ride height off Atlas trucks and lo-pro plastic wheels?  I'd also think we could skip the etched metal stirrups, so long as the stake pockets are a better size.  All that said, I'd bin for between 2 and 6 if they were undecs - which is a way bigger hole in the market for all cars IMHO.

[davefoxx]

I will consider any well-detailed car for purchase at that price point, if it comes with Fox Valley wheelsets, body-mounted couplers, and a correct ride height.  Not having to fix those items makes the extra cost of several dollars worth it to me.  If the flatcar came with a laser-cut wood deck, well, that would be the cherry on top. 

DFF

[Brakie]

First with thoughts dancing in my head about changing eras I would buy  such a car with the details mention however,I would not want metal wheels since I fully believe that is a modelers choice.

[bbussey]

... Perhaps my question should be is N scale ready to kick it up a notch in terms of expectations or would we rather whine some more about not having the same level of quality as HO modelers? ...

I think that ESM, along with BLMA and Bluford, has been the vanguard on that in regard to integrated body mounts, ride height and fine detail.  If the opportunity exists to raise the bar, whether with a flat car model or something else, I think it should be taken.

Remember that a couple of years ago the general consensus regarding gondolas was the same as it is for flatcars today.  With ESM and shortly BLMA having prototype-specific prototypically-correct well-detailed gons, it has pushed people to want more of them.  The same turn of events would occur with flatcars, once a prototypically-correct well-detailed riveted model hits the market.

[sirenwerks]

I think that ESM, along with BLMA and Bluford, has been the vanguard on that in regard to integrated body mounts, ride height and fine detail.  If the opportunity exists to raise the bar, whether with a flat car model or something else, I think it should be taken.

Remember that a couple of years ago the general consensus regarding gondolas was the same as it is for flatcars today. With ESM and shortly BLMA having prototype-specific prototypically-correct well-detailed gons, it has pushed people to want more of them.  The same turn of events would occur with flatcars, once a prototypically-correct well-detailed riveted model hits the market.

Bryan, that wasn't aimed at any manufacturer and I recognize the excellent work ESM and the others have done. My comment was aimed at the flat car vacuum still sucking air for transition modelers, despite several well-intentioned offers in that area - none of which were made by ESM or the others. Personally, I'm looking forward to your release of the C&O well-car when that happens, and to Craig's F89s, as they will begin to fill other parts of the hole.

And I agree with your observation that each well-produced offering wets the appetite of modelers for even more; it's been a general belief of mine all along for N scale, build it and they will come.

[CBQ Fan]

If it came in the CB&Q I would be interested but at that price point it seems high for a flat car.  Maybe in the $15 range.