So, Bachmann...

[Mark5]

Also, Bachmann is learning. On the H4, the wires are no longer coated with laquer but nice, insulated super flexible wires. No more worries about the loco to tender connection rubbing through the laquer and shorting.

This is good news. ;D I greatly dislike the "lacquer" on the Bmann locos I own.

[sizemore]

Sorry I started this topic. Ill keep excitement at being able to find what I want, and hoping for more, to myself from now on.

Thanks for clearing up the motors Skip. Learn something new every day.

There is no problem with the post. Some members decide to cram/force/reiterate the same point(s) over without concession to others points.

The S.

[sizemore]

Sorry I started this topic. Ill keep excitement at being able to find what I want, and hoping for more, to myself from now on.

Thanks for clearing up the motors Skip. Learn something new every day.

No problem starting the post. It has been entertaining.

Oh, and while we are at it, there is a new most disapointing loco at the top of my list... Kato GS-4.

Mine has now gone through 2 Tsunami decoders as of tonight. I believe I finally figured out the problem. In their effort to make the loco quiet, the vibration issolation motor mount allows the motor to move too much in the cradle. That, along with the fact that the rear flywheel was not pushed on far enough and could rub the frame, constitued a very hard to chase down intemittent short circuit which just took out decoder number two. The first one lasted about an hour, this one, about ten minutes. I have now probed and probed and can not recreate the short. I think I have solved the problem with a combination of gluing one side of the cradle to the frame and re-aligning the flywheels so they are in the middle of their frame pocket, I hope to have it fixed. The first decoder should be back in from Soundtraxx in the next few days, just in time to reuse the box and ship this one off.

Why not line the "pocket" with capton tape?

The S.

[Puddington]

The 3 poles still suck. (though they are greatly improved over early incarnations) On every 3 poler I own I can see the cogginess at slow speeds. I like to run my locos "realistically".

The cogginess of 3 polers can be compensated through gearing though.

On a loco like a J they could fit a decent 5 poler in there no problemo.

After years of fooling around with these little motors, you won't convince me that 3 is better than 5.

That said like I previously stated I can get the 3 polers I own to perform acceptably with a nice power pack, but I prefer better than "acceptable".

Also, most people probably won't notice the "cogginess" (this is an assumption, as I seem to be the lone wolf in the 3 vs 5 conversation).

Mark

Mark: I don't know about "lone wolf'; it's more like "to each his own" I guess.

One point I have to raise however; there seems to be this unspoken idea that Bachmann (or others for that matter) use three pole motors for some sinister reason that is unfathomable to the modeling public. Does anyone really think this is true. You stated that "there was room for a five pole" in the J class unit; I take your word for it; never having opened one up. So; why didn't Bachmann use one ? Did they intentionally use an inferior product when a better on was available ?

There are several possibilities; 1/ They feel a three pole is good enough and that the performance was meeting their expectation  2/ A five pole wasn't available at the time of production  3/ A five pole would put them above a production cost that would support the price point they intend to market the item at and do not feel the market would support a higher price.

I don't know which is true and I suspect that none of us do either; we can speculate as we sit in our silo as much as we like.

Regardless; I think that Bachmann produces the best product they can; with the resources they have; at the cost level they have and, most importantly; in order to hit a price point that allows them to meet profitability targets at a given market price.

I can't believe it's some sinister plot to produce crappy steam engines in order to drive n scalers nuts..... ;D

[Mark5]

I can't believe it's some sinister plot to produce crappy steam engines in order to drive n scalers nuts..... ;D

I didn't think there was a plot until I read your post - now I do think there is!!!

Actually, I wasn't speculating about why Bachmann does what they do. Just stating that the 3 polers are sub par, and somehow they could have done better. ;D

BTW, no complaints about the 5 poler in my spectrum 2-8-0, which of course is much larger than the N&W J.

(even with the 3 poler, I love those Js! Though one of them required a VM massage to make it work)

Mark

[Nato]

  At most train shows the crowd noise is so loud you can bairly hear the sond even with the volume cranked up to un realistic levels . When running an Athearn Challenger at the last show I was at only an occaisional viewer standing up really close to the layout or during an infrequent lull in the crowd was able to point out to his child"listen that train has a whistle and a bell". Sound on both steam and diesel is nice on a home layout where you and guest operators can appreciate it as long as it is adjusted to realistic levels. I have to agree with Lee that sound decoders are tempormental and are a huge power drain. Since my layout is still DC with wirless radio throttles the startup voltage for say a UP BLI E-8/9 with sound is tremendous. Three pole motors can run very slowly,but these seem to be exceptions. I had a Ravirossi Pacific many moons ago in a Con Cor Cardinal's Train Set that when the locomotive was completely broken in crept and ran as well at slow speeds as any Kato of today,but this was an exception,most of them had a still fairly fast low speed. This was without usuing Pulse Power. True the 3 poles in todays Bachmann's are improved and are alot slower,I still feel 5 pole is a better way to go. Nate Goodman (Nato).

[DKS]

From my silo, I have to say that I'm suspicious of anyone who might claim 5-poles can't fit in small N scale steamers, especially since Märklin has gone to the trouble of switching from 3- to 5-poles for all of their Z scale locos. Most Z scalers are very happy with this change as well; I've not seen any reports that the locos have suffered as a consequence, and slow-speed performance is greatly enhanced.

If the need is perceived as being strong enough, then I'd place a healthy bet that someone could come up with a really fine 5-pole to fit in small N scale steamers. But as for why B'mann is sticking with 3-poles, my suspicion is that it boils down to two things:

1. Cost. As long as they can keep moving product, then there are enough customers to satisfy their bottom line. If all of a sudden sales went down the toilet, and they noticed that switching to 5-poles improved sales, then I'd bet they'd start using 5-poles. Nothing sinister, nothing complicated, just bottom-line math.

2. Prevailing opinions. Just as we see a raft of different viewpoints here on Railwire, the thinking of management and designers at B'mann (or any other manufacturer) influences their products. If some decision-maker there is convinced there's no merit to switching to 5-poles, then we likely won't see it happen until that person leaves.

[Mark5]

But as for why B'mann is sticking with 3-poles, my suspicion is that it boils down to two things:

I should point out that this past decade Bachmann switched from 5 poles to 3 poles. My Spectrum 2-8-0 has a 5 poler.

I think the USRA Light Mountain had a 5 poler, but I don't own one.

Mark

[victor miranda]

wheeeeeee!

the answer to the why did b-mann use the new 3 pole is cost.
no other reason makes any sense.

5 pole motors exist that will fit in the J and heavy mountain
and 2-6-6-2.  the motor dimensions are the same  except the shaft is 1.5mm
on the 5 pole.


lets keep a few facts straight.
3 pole motors will motivate a model locomotive.
They are also cheaper in cost than a 5 pole motor.

I like cheaper.

what we get with the 3 pole is a loco that will jackrabbit start
and will cog at slow speeds.

this is a cost for benefit issue.
the worth of something is all opinion.


Bachmann charges Kato prices for their recent locos.
b-mann installs less expensive motors into those same locos.
The past two sentences are fact.

here is an opinion ...
I don't see any benefits from the inferior motor.
the locos do not run better.
they do not last longer.
and most important.
the price is not lower...
v

[Puddington]

wheeeeeee!

the answer to the why did b-mann use the new 3 pole is cost.
no other reason makes any sense.




Bachmann charges Kato prices for their recent locos.
b-mann installs less expensive motors into those same locos.
The past two sentences are fact.


v

If Victor is correct; and I am not inclined to disagree with him, then there is an obvious conclusion, and once again, it comes back to the integration of Kato and it's business model.

Kato's business model vertically integrates their production; they are darn near self sufficent in terms of their need, or lack there of, to oursource. Kato produces a huge amount of product for their domestic consumption, little of which we NA's take notice of. They are bound to have a competitive advantage over a firm like Bachmann who is most certainly outsourcing much of their production (I stand to be corrected here)

Kato's use of five poled motors is their Mike and GS 4 a mirror of their domestic production; they are bound to have either in house production or a deal that no other could have due to their ownership of a huge domestic market. They don't have their capital tied up in HO and other products; they are mission specific so they have an advantage.

Bachmann may charge a "Kato price" because that's what the market will bear. Remember; Kato isn't making four or five North American steam engines and agressively selling the N.A. market. Quite the reverse. Kato sees the N.A. market as secondary (and this is a source of frustration to many, many modelers here) and as such has relatively few offerings. Indeed; I am of the opinion that Kato would have few qualms about abandoning the N.A. market if they could rationalize a wholely domestic market stratagy that returned a profit they could accept and would not increase their overall business model risk.

So; with the market hungry fro N.A. steam and Kato being unwilling to feed the market you are naturally going to have others who will try and fill the need. Bachmann is one; Model Power was (is) another but neither is in a business model or financial position to provide Kato quality at the current market price. (which, it can be argued has been driven down by Kato with it's MSRP on the GS 4) They will never be able to support the current market price with their business model and costs; yet they will also never be able to copy Kato's model and cost structure due to their geography and their diversity.

So; is there room for a North American version of a Kato ? I do not know; other, far wiser and more knowledgable than me about the costs and drivers in the modeling industry may wish to comment but I have to believe that a model exists for someone like a FVM; Rapido or BLMA to attempt to capture a significant portion of the market with Kato like quality if they put their mind to it.

Thus, in my opinion, you really can't expect Bachmann to produce in the same fashion as Kato does at the same cost structure. They can't control costs the same and don't set the market price. A bad combination in any business.

[Mark5]

Kato's use of five poled motors is their Mike and GS 4 a mirror of their domestic production; they are bound to have either <snip>

IIRC Kato "cheaped out" (my opinion) on the GS4 and stuck a 3 poler in there.

So; is there room for a North American version of a Kato ?

We'd probably be better served by a North American Micro Ace - they crank out Japanese steamers at a frenzied pace!

Mark

[Puddington]

Kato's use of five poled motors is their Mike and GS 4 a mirror of their domestic production; they are bound to have either <snip>

IIRC Kato "cheaped out" (my opinion) on the GS4 and stuck a 3 poler in there.

Mark

Yet we hail Kato as the quality leader - does the GS 4 run well - don't know; don't model Espee.............

[Mark5]

I don't hail Kato.

I hail anyone that makes stuff I want, and makes it well.

Ok, I think I've said (re-said!) about all I have to say on this topic . I hope the promised Bachmann announcement this summer is a good one. 

Mark

[Puddington]

I still say it's Victor's employment annoucement...................... ;D

[victor miranda]

yup Kato used a 3 pole motor in the GS-4.
It shows at slow speeds.  it is that same motor they put in the NW2.

here is the kicker....
The kato three pole motor is good motor,
(oh that was painful to say...)
because it has brush barrels and very strong magnets.
It will hold up in service.
If b-mann was using that motor I'd have a much harder time
finding fault with the motors...

lets keep this straight. the GS4 would be better with a 5 pole motor....

and man I'd love to try the 5 pole version of that Kato 3 pole.
that would be an eye opener.

victor