Interesting post by Charlie Vlk about Kato's business plan

[Chulvis]

I often wonder if the good folks at Kato gives a rats-a$$ what anyone on a forum thinks or says. Seems pretty clear to me that they could care less about anything other than modern era western roads with the occasional tease to Canada, CSX and NS.

This same old tired debate has been going on for years and has obviously fallen on deaf ears. Kato could care less what you all think...get over it! They are going to produce what they know they can sell...period.

So, I think the best we can do is simply pull for the new guys to give us what we want. Why not change our tune and call on the likes of BLMA Models, Fox Valley Models, Bluford Shops, Eastern Seaboard Models and Wheels of Time? At least these guys are willing to listen. They are young, smaller companies and all of them have already offered us products we all wanted and have done a very good job of it. Additionally, they are running their business in a way that makes sense for the modern day Model RR manufacturer, lean and mean. Probably not going to see many canceled products from any of these guys anytime soon.

The N Scale manufacturing landscape is changing. There are new, forward thinking companies out there who do a much better job of hearing you than almost any of the old guard ever have.

[tom mann]

So, I think the best we can do is simply pull for the new guys to give us what we want. Why not change our tune and call on the likes of BLMA Models, Fox Valley Models, Bluford Shops, Eastern Seaboard Models and Wheels of Time? At least these guys are willing to listen. They are young, smaller companies and all of them have already offered us products we all wanted and have done a very good job of it. Additionally, they are running their business in a way that makes sense for the modern day Model RR manufacturer, lean and mean. Probably not going to see many canceled products from any of these guys anytime soon.

Chuck is exactly right.  If all the new guys are making products we want and there are no missing gaps, who cares what Kato does at that point?  And that point is coming soon, very soon.

[up1950s]

" Couldn't Care Less " would make better sense I think .

[Puddington]

So; I get accused of being anti Kato because I have been saying many of the same things for what; about three years...........

Kato views the wants and desires of the North American market about the way International Paper views the same in the Sudan market for linerboard and medium........it's a market; not an important market and in the time we've taken to discuss this topic we've wasted 50% of the entire time we think about the wants and desires of said market..........they get what we decide to sell.

Those modelers that live and die on Kato for their models; long for Kato to adopt multiple projects; roadnames and re runs will be disappointed forever. North America is not their prime market; they have production constraints; a captive home and local market and don't need to "slay the dragon".....get over it; we're not always the "golden ring"....

Best to be encouraging other producers to improve than "pining for the Kato's".................

[davidone]

I agree with Chuck on this, the younger mfgs. will listen to the market and react. The guys at BLMA, FVM and others are getting most of my money. They will continue to get it with the kinds of products they are putting out. I posted a thread on the A forum on why don't Kato paint the railings and steps. I got ripped for it because the price of our locos will go up and how dare i be an N scaler and not do those simple upgrades. Well guess what FVM is doing it, so why can't kato? I only made the suggestion because i have partial use of only one of my hands and it very difficult for me to do that kind of work. Is that process by FVM added that much more to the locomotive? Bluford is another one that saw a market for those 86' auto cars of which i have quite a few and brought them to market. Don't get me wrong i have quite of few of kato locos especially the SD70ACe of which i have 8 of them but they could do so much better by expanding thier detailing and also expanding thier market at the same time. 

Dave

[Nato]

   Atlas ignors the wants and desires of the Japanese market ,but I'am pretty sure there are only a small handful of N American modelers in Japan and they get a huge selection of US locos and cars,so if Atlas made a few Japanese or Asian items for export sales would we have a reverse KATO situation in Japan wanting their latest Rainbowliner Vista Train or what ever and griping that Atlas won't make it ,but KATO and maybe TOMIX have always offered a large selection. I think their business model mostly works for them ,but it is hard to understand for some of us North Americano's.                                                    Nate Goodman (Nato) "Who loves his green KATO Hiato Adashio Passenger Train and Brown Emperor's Train with matching Electric locos,pictures coming soon."

[kiwi_al]

Well put Chuck!
I'm really looking forward to seeing what Matt at FVM is going to come up with after the Hiawatha and I'm keeping half an eye on young Craig at BLMA - he could launch into total coolness faster than a speeding bullet!   ;D

[inkaneer]

I am surprised that you are all surprised at all this.  Here, I thought it was common knowledge in the hobby.  I recall the article that C. Vlk referred to but I do not recall that the original article created any waves at the time.   It was only a restatement of what was, I thought, common knowledge.

[Rossford Yard]

The way I see it, Kato is operating at full production, and they can pretty much count on selling almost everything they make.

This pretty well sums up my feelings. I am not sure Kato can be compared with Toyota, other than they are Japanese and make a quality product. If so, Kato would have US plants!

For those who say Kato doesn't care what these forums say, it may be true. Anyway, it is what it is and Kato only makes what sells in their opinion.  They don't want too many RDC fiascos.  They know what they know.

But for everyone who complains about not getting CSX, NS or shortlines, etc. could it be that Kato has simply gotten far fewer orders or sales for locos in those paint schemes, so they have just shied away?  I would say that they probably just know their market and know that western roads sell better.  That has long been a belief in MRR, and I even recall John Armstrong mentioning it in one of his track planning books.  As far as Kato, I think that there are at least some US themed modelers in Japan, but I think there is more of a fascination with the American West than East over there so some of the Western bias may be cultural, too.

If anything, we just ought to be applauding Atlas and others for their modelercentric focus on putting out short lines and lesser known schemes just to satisfy us, when I would bet that Reading and Northern and a few other offbeat schemes lose money and must be covered by - you guessed it - sales of western roads!  20 years ago, all you could get from anyone was the big roads for the most part.  And, as CSX was brand new, even Atlas wouldn't paint too many locos in that scheme, knowing that, at that time, Chessie and B and O for example sold a lot better.  There were no CSX modelers because nothing was in that paint scheme. 

It would be an interesting study to see the number of paint schemes for any loco released over the years.  We might be surprised at the lack of diversity until recently, as well as the amount of change in road names.

[SirTainly]

  As far as Kato, I think that there are at least some US themed modelers in Japan, but I think there is more of a fascination with the American West than East over there so some of the Western bias may be cultural, too.

To be fair I think that's true of most of the world who get brought up on American pop culture, I'm thinking mostly films/TV shows. Whether it be Hollywood blockbusters in CA or a western set out in Nevada the western landscapes get the exposure abroad. The only time the East gets a look in is if something is set in NYC, which given that's going to be urban modelling from a MRR POV doesn't really give enough difference over modelling the domestic scene in a city (unless you make your layout a cliche with all the tourist buildings in the background). 

[Rossford Yard]

Not to answer my own question, but here are some Kato releases by date.  The info is a cut and paste from the Amherst Depot site, to give credit where credit is due, but with the actual numbers of locos they still have in stock edited out.

In short, I haven't seen any real ATSF/UP bias when looking over these releases.

GP38-2   Release Date: Apr 1987    
 
Undecorated . . . .
Burlington Northern Green & Black 2078    
Conrail Blue & White 7940 1
CSX Blue & Gray 2641  
Santa Fe Blue & Yellow Warbonnet 2370  
Union Pacific Yellow & Gray 2040

GP38/GP 38-2  Release Date: April 1988

Undecorated     . .
Burlington Northern Green & Black 2150 . .
Conrail Blue & White 8265 . .
CSX Blue & White 6019 . .
Santa Fe Blue & Yellow- Warbonnet 3571
Union Pacific Yellow & Gray 2059 . .
CP Rail  Red Pac-Man  3085
Milwaukee Rd.  Black & Orange- White Letters No# . .
Milwaukee Rd.  Black & Orange- Black Letters 365
Missouri Pacific Blue 2334
Southern Pacific Gray w/Bloody Nose

Two variations of MILW, the only loco with two road numbers in that release!

Now, jump forward ten years to June/Dec 1997 for the C44-9

Undecorated High Number Board  
Undecorated Low Number Board  
Canadian National Black & Red "North America" 2502 . .
Canadian National Black & Red "North America" 2503 . .
Canadian National Black & Red "North America" No# . .
Chicago Northwestern Yellow w/Green Lightening Stripe 8626 . .
Chicago Northwestern Yellow w/Green Lightening Stripe 8633 . .
Chicago Northwestern Yellow w/Green Lightening Stripe No#
Union Pacific Yellow & Gray 9702
Union Pacific Yellow & Gray 9726
Union Pacific Yellow & Gray No#
CSX New Image 9009 . .
CSX New Image 9024 . .
CSX New Image No# . .
Santa Fe Red & Silver - Warbonnet 600 . .
Santa Fe Red & Silver - Warbonnet 650 . .
Santa Fe Red & Silver - Warbonnet No# . .
Southern Pacific Speed Lettering 8100 . .
Southern Pacific Speed Lettering 8105 . .
Southern Pacific Speed Lettering No#


Release Date: Dec 1997      
Chicago Northwestern Operation Lifesaver 8659
Chicago Northwestern Operation Lifesaver 8717
Chicago Northwestern Operation Lifesaver No#
Santa Fe Red & Silver - Warbonnet 605 . .
Santa Fe Red & Silver - Warbonnet 606 . .
Norfolk Southern Black & White 8936 . .
Norfolk Southern Black & White 8979 . .
Norfolk Southern Black & White No# . .
BNSF Green & Orange "Pumpkin" 976 . .
BNSF Green & Orange "Pumpkin" 1005 . .
BNSF Green & Orange "Pumpkin"

Jump ahead another five or six years to the SD70 series....

Undecorated . .
BNSF Executive 9782 . .
BNSF Executive 9837 . .
BNSF Heritage II  9838
BNSF Heritage II  9853 . .
Conrail Conrail Quality  4133
Conrail Conrail Quality 4137
CSX Bright Future 713
CSX Bright Future  734

SD70 MAC - Release Date: May 2003 Nose Mounted Headlight

Undecorated . .
BNSF Heritage II  8802
BNSF Heritage II  9959
Alaska Blue & Yellow 4001
Alaska Blue & Yellow 4014
TFM NAFTA Railway  1602
TFM NAFTA Railway  1634

SD70 MAC - Release Date: May 2004 cab mnted H.L. & HTCR Ph1 Trucks
  
Burlington Executive 9580
Burlington Executive 9615
BNSF Merger Colors 9647

SD70 MAC - Release Date: July 2005 cab mnted H.L. & HTCR Ph1 Trucks
  
Burlington Northern Executive 9581
Burlington Northern Executive 9612
Burlington Northern Executive 9662

SD70M - Release Date April 2005

Norfolk Southern Black w/White Face 2591
Norfolk Southern Black w/White Face 2599
Norfolk Southern Black w/White Face 2608
Union Pacific Building America 3972 .  
Union Pacific Building America 4839 . .
Union Pacific Building America 4841

BTW, the SD40-2, released in 2000 and 2006 had CNW, MILW, NS, CSX, BCR, CN, CP, EMD Leasing, in addition to BN, ATSF, BNSF, UP, SP. From memory, it also had some MP (albeit in UP colors) didn't it? I agree that they have many, many more roads they could sell, but with their new emphasis on road specific details, which I presume they hear a lot about on forums like this, could those be done without a lot of retooling?  

They do seem to have picked BNSF for SD70 re releases, because the AC units and GPS units are pretty standard and the potential sales justify it.  I just don't know if they think we would accept Soo Line or other lesser modeled roads without the correct details, eh?  If you want them to listen, maybe you should send emails saying that for the SD40-2, you would buy a dozen and detail them yourselves for road XXX that isn't as popular.

Sir Tainly,

Thanks for agreeing.  Of course, Kato seems into urban modeling, but all their prototype buildings look Japanese. I think many modelers use them anyway to get that urban look.

[lock4244]

Milwaukee Rd.  Black & Orange- White Letters No# . .
Milwaukee Rd.  Black & Orange- Black Letters 365

Two variations of MILW, the only loco with two road numbers in that release!

Going back a long way and the memory is fuzzy, but IIRC the two MILW were on account of an error on the first one (white lettering) and the second was released as a correction.

One nice thing about Kato's often glacial releases is that when I get up the nerve to sell my 4 CN C44's, they'll still be the only factory release of them for CN.

[lashedup]

The way I see it, Kato is operating at full production, and they can pretty much count on selling almost everything they make. Life Like, on the other hand, over produced many of their offerings, and a lot of their stuff is sitting around. So which company has the most new products for us each year?

I agree with David and echo Chuck's sentiments. Kato is really not a particularly large company and their capacity is limited. So with the limited capacity they have, the bulk goes to Japanese prototypes for the home market and the rest gets what they can get. I remember Kato USA saying they were just waiting for a production time slot on their SD70ACE's a few months ago when people were waiting and things were delayed a bit.

Like Chuck pointed out, we have lots of alternatives now.

[Rossford Yard]

Milwaukee Rd.  Black & Orange- White Letters No# . .
Milwaukee Rd.  Black & Orange- Black Letters 365

Two variations of MILW, the only loco with two road numbers in that release!

Going back a long way and the memory is fuzzy, but IIRC the two MILW were on account of an error on the first one (white lettering) and the second was released as a correction.

One nice thing about Kato's often glacial releases is that when I get up the nerve to sell my 4 CN C44's, they'll still be the only factory release of them for CN.

I didn't recall that blunder on MILW. I do recall a flub on the BNSF SD70Mac painting where the undecs were taken out to use as repaints.

Not true on CN, as the SD40-2 was released twice in CN colors, on both the first release and then a re-release in 2006, with IC sub lettering, I believe.  The F3 and F7 came in CN, as did the RDC and Mikado, if that interestst you.

[wm3798]

When Atlas released their own GP-38 and 38-2, the wall started to break down.  That was more or less the end of the "respect of boundaries" for duplicating a release.  The more recent Life Like version of the -2 further breached the wall.  (To a more modest extent you could include the Lifelike E and PA's, but that's that passenger crap and I don't pay attention to that...)  Also, with the 38's, you're covering a much broader spectrum of time and road names.

Anyway, If Intermountain can get past their sketchy reputation on the SD-40-2 series, making them at least as good as their F units, then Kato will be less of a factor in the US market.  If they decide to pull up stakes altogether and focus entirely on the Land of the Rising Sun, it will cost us some unique models, but they wouldn't be the first to take their football home and end the game.  Minitrix has been out of the US Market for some time, eliminating a line that at one time was the standard bearer for the scale.  I believe that they have since reconstituted, and are now focused on European outline models exclusively.

As Trix has left us without a new K-4, FM switcher, U33CG and the several other models they did, Kato might leave us without a GG-1, SD80-MAC, and a Douche-9.  If Matt, Bryan, Craig et al are savvy enough, they'll find a way to keep them available, and maybe even revive the K-4!

C'est la vie.  At this point, Kato doesn't make anything I need, and I don't expect them to, ever.  No whining, just saying again, it is what it is!

lee