Intermountain is Cancelling Reading F7's and more

[MichaelWinicki]

It's possible someone like Pete from BLW could end up doing exclusive IM runs with some of these cancelled products.

Possibly some of the rolling stock but locomotives? I think not. The cost of doing that would be tens of thousands of dollars. Not gonna happen.

Didn't BLW have an exclusive on NYO&W FT's?

[Ryan87]

I was just about to type the exact same thing... Not to mention Hobbycraft Canada had done special runs of Atlas locomotives in the past...

It's possible someone like Pete from BLW could end up doing exclusive IM runs with some of these cancelled products.

Possibly some of the rolling stock but locomotives? I think not. The cost of doing that would be tens of thousands of dollars. Not gonna happen.

Didn't BLW have an exclusive on NYO&W FT's?

[sirenwerks]

I would suggest that those online like us are still a very small percentage of the overall picture.  I think the marketing results from us would be very narrow.  The major manufactures have been around for quite awhile, so they must be finding some product for everyone to buy.

Yep, something akin to 10% if I remember correctly.  Not enough (yet) to base entire marketing programs on.

Precisely why the recommendation I made did not rely solely on online outreach, but suggested in-person, print, and mailing vehicles/options as well.

[bbussey]

Precisely why the recommendation I made did not rely solely on online outreach, but suggested in-person, print, and mailing vehicles/options as well.

Again, why are you assuming that this wasn't done?  And again, why are you annoyed with paintschemes (as opposed to models) being canceled?  All of the models themselves have been strong sellers, and with few exceptions all the paintschemes are re-releases.  It's a coincidence that so many cancellations occurred within one reservation period, nothing more.

[John]

I would suggest that those online like us are still a very small percentage of the overall picture.  I think the marketing results from us would be very narrow.  The major manufactures have been around for quite awhile, so they must be finding some product for everyone to buy.

Yep, something akin to 10% if I remember correctly.  Not enough (yet) to base entire marketing programs on.

Maybe not .. but it is a good source of info from a widely dispersed audience

[Brakie]

Precisely why the recommendation I made did not rely solely on online outreach, but suggested in-person, print, and mailing vehicles/options as well.

Again, why are you assuming that this wasn't done?  And again, why are you annoyed with paintschemes (as opposed to models) being canceled?  All of the models themselves have been strong sellers, and with few exceptions all the paintschemes are re-releases.  It's a coincidence that so many cancellations occurred within one reservation period, nothing more.

My thoughts is simple..The few that wanted the road name is disappointed because it was cancelled.

I would be more concerned if a major road name was cancelled .

[inkaneer]

I'm noting also that the outrage appears to be directed at paintschemes being canceled, not whether or not a specific model should have been tooled.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I think the outrage is directed at the pre order system in general.  The mass cancellation of the paint schemes was only the spark that ignited it.  One more item here.  Why is it that undecorated models sell for as much or nearly as much as those with fancy paint schemes?  When I asked this question in the past I was told that the cost of painting a model was minimal compared to the tooling cost of producing the model.  In this case the tooling costs should have been recouped already.  I would think that would lower the amount of preorders necessary to justify a run.  But one other aspect of this bears mentioning and that is financing.   Businesses, especially small businesses, are finding it very difficult to obtain loans these days.  So what if Intermountain planned on financing the release of these models using a bank loan and the bank said no?  Without some other avenue of financing they would have to cancel the planned release whether they had sufficient orders or not.

[CBQ Fan]

I would suggest that those online like us are still a very small percentage of the overall picture.  I think the marketing results from us would be very narrow.  The major manufactures have been around for quite awhile, so they must be finding some product for everyone to buy.

Yep, something akin to 10% if I remember correctly.  Not enough (yet) to base entire marketing programs on.

Maybe not .. but it is a good source of info from a widely dispersed audience

True enough.  All are important parts of the puzzle.  And who is to say that IM did not do extensive research and found enough interest to release the artwork and set up a schedule only to find when shops/distributors placed orders there was a wide discrepancy??

[inkaneer]

My thoughts is simple..The few that wanted the road name is disappointed because it was cancelled.

I would be more concerned if a major road name was cancelled .

What makes you say that the road names that were canceled were not a "major road name"?  It may not be a "major road name" to you but I bet that everybody who models that particular road will think that it IS a "major road name".  

[Ed Kapuscinski]

But just a few people having an oopinion does not make it true.

[Brakie]

My thoughts is simple..The few that wanted the road name is disappointed because it was cancelled.

I would be more concerned if a major road name was cancelled .

What makes you say that the road names that were canceled were not a "major road name"?  It may not be a "major road name" to you but I bet that everybody who models that particular road will think that it IS a "major road name".  

I'll wager there is more interest (say) in B&O F7 then (say) a N&W F7.

Why do I think that?

For years there was very little available in C&O or the DT&I.

Mention N&W and many modelers think of High Hood road units and not F7s or any of the former NKP/Wabash locomotives.

 A lot of modelers doesn't even know N&W had F units!!

Of course this was after the N&W/NKP/Wabash merger.

The same can be said about the smaller and less known railroads,short lines and terminal switching roads.

90% of today's modelers has heard of the great Cincinnati Union Terminal but,very few heard of its namesake railroad.

[Mark5]

N&W fans along the former Wabash districts may beg to differ.

N&W rostered over 100 F7s after the 1964 merger.

[sirenwerks]

The last sentence I will agree with, perfect business sense. The rest I respectfully disagree with, in fact, take as insult, as flagrant excuse for poor marketing. Contrary to popular belief, marketing includes product development. Make a product the consumer wants - body style, paint schemes, detail level, etc. - and it serves to sell itself...

Not trying to stir the pot here ... but to play Devil's Advocate a little - if manufacturers are not tooling products the consumers want, then why are those manufacturers getting flak for canceling deco schemes on the aforementioned unwanted products?

Why is it not conceivable that the model in general had sufficient demand to produce it, but certain paintschemes on the model do not?  It's not as if this is the first release of the FP7 or the Centralia passenger cars.  Why not throw an NdeM sleeper announcement out there and see if there is a demand for it?  Why not applaud InterMountain for releasing Long Island on the same model, as far as I know the first ever N scale sleeper available (as the NdeM would have been) for that road?

I don't understand the outrage.  It's not as if this is a new marketing concept suddenly introduced to the hobby.  There is absolutely no chance a Long Island sleeper gets produced today if a manufacturer had to take a blind gamble on it, regardless of whatever costly marketing research they did up front.  I'd rather have the current environment where there is more diversity in what's offered - rather than the way it was 40 years ago when there were only four or five schemes released on a model for years, many of which were not prototypical.

I believe the outrage NandW exclaimed is based on the fact that IMRC didn't do their marketing research BEFORE announcing the products. Instead, they announce product and when it becomes evident there's not enough interest, they unannounce it. This makes those who wanted the announced-but-now-yanked product feeling slighted. This tactic creates a question of follow-through and integrity.

[bbussey]

I think the outrage is directed at the pre order system in general.  The mass cancellation of the paint schemes was only the spark that ignited it.  One more item here.  Why is it that undecorated models sell for as much or nearly as much as those with fancy paint schemes?  When I asked this question in the past I was told that the cost of painting a model was minimal compared to the tooling cost of producing the model.  In this case the tooling costs should have been recouped already.  I would think that would lower the amount of preorders necessary to justify a run.  But one other aspect of this bears mentioning and that is financing.   Businesses, especially small businesses, are finding it very difficult to obtain loans these days.  So what if Intermountain planned on financing the release of these models using a bank loan and the bank said no?  Without some other avenue of financing they would have to cancel the planned release whether they had sufficient orders or not.

As I already stated up-thread, the pre-order system is now the standard and is here to stay.  It also has been in place for at least 30 years - starting with limited brass offerings and migrating into the injection-molded and diecast products over a decade ago when production costs started escalating.  Absolutely NO ONE complained when having to work with this system when acquiring brass models, so why is it now an issue?  Folks need to stop bemoaning a situation that is not going to change, and accept that they will have to pre-order to get the more esoteric stuff or live without the desired item.

Another point - you have no idea what the quantity cutoff is regarding pre-orders.  It could be 75 pieces, or it could be 375 pieces.  You don't know.  If the company needs to produce at least 100 pieces of an item to hold the per-piece cost down, and they get reservations for 75 pieces, are they supposed to move forward anyway and hope that someone takes the remaining 25 pieces?  And those 25 pieces sitting on the shelf are capital not available to help produce the next project.  It's easy to play with other people's money.

Regarding the undecorated topic yet again, which I thought Chuck had put to bed a few days ago - tooling costs usually are amortized over a number of production runs.  For example, there have been two production runs of the Magor C&O caboose so far; most likely, it will not be until the fourth run (whenever that occurs) is sold out at Atlas before Atlas recoups the tooling cost investment.  The fifth run is where they will start to turn profit.  Unless, of course, they add $5 to the MSRP.  Then maybe they could recoup the tooling cost in three runs, but that of course would defeat the purpose of tooling up a new Trainman-quality caboose.  It is difficult for arguments tossed out there to be taken seriously when people are not aware of the entire picture.  By all means, you are entitled to your own opinions.  But you are not entitled to your own set of facts.

As with most larger companies, the major MRR manufacturers have credit lines.  They don't go to the bank to secure loans for every project they do.  Why would you think this?  What happened is the obvious - there were not enough pre-orders to justify producing the roadnames that were canceled.  If there isn't a large enough quantity to offset the artwork/paint-masks/printing-plates/setup/labor/shipping/import costs, the per-unit cost (and therefore the MSRP) will be too high to sell the product.  You above all people should appreciate that, since you believe the per-unit MSRPs overall are too high already.  The overwhelming majority of the canceled IM items were of repeat re-issued roadnames on established models.  The MDT reefer (an eye-popping 41 road numbers to date), the MILW FP7s in UP scheme, the Red Caboose X29 schemes - all released previously with multiple road numbers, and most released at least twice previously.  The consumer base isn't unlimited - at some point, demand is satisfied on any product/scheme if it is released enough - whether A&WP or O&NW or BN or UP.

BTW, you do realize that most of IM's products are modular and have to be manually assembled, yes?  The FP7 shell has a number of separate components, as does the upcoming FP9.  The passenger cars have multiple components that are hand-assembled.  All of the other RTR cars that started out as kits must be hand-assembled.  That labor adds to the cost, even if not done in the States.  Many current models of the other manufacturers are designed in similar fashion, with separate parts that must be hand-assembled.  Look at the roofwalks and brake platforms on the FVM Milwaukee boxcar; the roofwalks and brake platforms on BLMA's TopGon and PS-4000 hoppers; the placards and end ladders on the Atlas ARA 1932 boxcar; the roofwalk, brake platform and charcoal heater on the upcoming ESM XIH boxcar; the body-mounted couplers on a growing number of new models - all labor-intensive features.  More and more of these models require some hand assembly, which adds to the cost regardless of the decoration.

Some of you guys aren't being fair, and aren't looking at the entire picture from both sides of the fence.  And I also don't understand the current bomb-throwing at InterMountain (which currently has in stock 16 unique PRR models in multiple road numbers BTW), which offers a wide-ranging and diverse assortment of models, and kept re-engineering the SP Cab-Forward and pushing the release date back (and frustrating SP modelers in the process) because they wanted to make sure the engine performed admirably.  I don't see the reason for all this anger, at all.

[bbussey]

I believe the outrage NandW exclaimed is based on the fact that IMRC didn't do their marketing research BEFORE announcing the products. Instead, they announce product and when it becomes evident there's not enough interest, they unannounce it. This makes those who wanted the announced-but-now-yanked product feeling slighted. This tactic creates a question of follow-through and integrity.

I addressed this immediately above, as did others on this page of the thread.