Decline of non-etched details

[Erik W]

After nearly 40 years in N scale it's still slim pickings for many "basic" detail parts.

Mark

Yeah, I don't know that whichever process you choose, spin cast white metal, resin, injection molded plastic, RP that you can achieve both a high level of detail and a line of parts to make it profitable, unless you have a day job and the detail parts business is just your after hours/hobby type job.  While we can make do with what's out there, the loss of Sunrise is actually a pretty significant setback for this type of detail part. 

What I'm also finding is, a lot of the scenery detail parts that used to be available no longer are.  This makes detailing an urban landscape a bit harder as well.

Erik

[lashedup]

I think you guys are missing a lot in the setup.

Do you think you could just combine 12 unrelated cad drawings and tell a CnC operator to push start ?


Jason

Sorta...

Take a Perfactory 3D printer as an example. Perfactory is one of the better 3D printers on the market and produces some remarkably smooth output in a variety of available materials (including clear). Depending on which model you are using, you *can* gang up several items for output in a single run. However the whole printing process is still quite slow (half an inch buildup of material can take an hour or more). Here is a short video showing the layering process (sort of) and final output:

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As with anything else in this industry the price, performance and cost of materials is coming down more and more. Plus there are now service bureaus that will do output for you.

So yes, in the long-run there will be new options that will open this market up and won't require large investments in tooling.

[71jeep]

I think you guys are missing a lot in the setup.

Do you think you could just combine 12 unrelated cad drawings and tell a CnC operator to push start ?


Jason

If the machine has the capacity to hold the program and the tooling and the operator is competent it should not be a problem.In some shops it is becoming a common practice to run multiple different parts at once.


Allen.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

I wouldn't be surprised if, over time, we see these things becoming co-ops of sorts, because, as I think people are learning, making $3 (retail) parts is no way to get rich (or probably even eat...).

The good news is that technologies are coming along to enable a few people getting together and making some cool stuff happen, but I think it'll just take some time.

In the meantime, I'm glad I've got the strategic cab signal reserve in the basement.

[wcfn100]

I think you guys are missing a lot in the setup.

Do you think you could just combine 12 unrelated cad drawings and tell a CnC operator to push start ?


Jason

If the machine has the capacity to hold the program and the tooling and the operator is competent it should not be a problem.In some shops it is becoming a common practice to run multiple different parts at once.


Allen.

Of course it's possible on the CnC, just like the RP machine.  But you still haven't addressed any of the setup involved.  And they aren't talking about running the same 10 parts all the time but possibly 10 different parts each run.
 
It's been 15 years since I ran a CnC, so maybe nowadays you can simply clamp a piece of aluminum, push in multiple drawings without any setup, I don't know.

Jason

[71jeep]

I think you guys are missing a lot in the setup.

Do you think you could just combine 12 unrelated cad drawings and tell a CnC operator to push start ?


Jason

If the machine has the capacity to hold the program and the tooling and the operator is competent it should not be a problem.In some shops it is becoming a common practice to run multiple different parts at once.


Allen.

Of course it's possible on the CnC, just like the RP machine.  But you still haven't addressed any of the setup involved.  And they aren't talking about running the same 10 parts all the time but possibly 10 different parts each run.
 
It's been 15 years since I ran a CnC, so maybe nowadays you can simply clamp a piece of aluminum, push in multiple drawings without any setup, I don't know.

Jason

Jason it is almost that easy nowadays with Mastercam and other programing software for the CNC .But it still takes a skilled programmer and operator/setup man to pull it off.

Setup would be time consuming I am sure ,but with less tool change longer overall run time so the operator can be running another machine shorter individual run times ect.

I will give ya that if all 10 or so parts are completely different every time it would not be all that productive to go through all the trouble  but it is possible  ;D ;D

[Zox]

However the whole printing process is still quite slow (half an inch buildup of material can take an hour or more).

I am in no way disagreeing with you, but we are talking about N-scale detail parts here. There's a whole universe of stuff that's less than an eighth of an inch (that's 20 inches in N scale!) thick.

If you look at it from that perspective, 3-D printing and N-scale details are pretty much made for each other...

[Mark4]

(and still begging for a GP15T in N scale)

How many do you want? I can run them tonight

[daniel_leavitt2000]

If you take all of Atlas's detail parts from various models over the past few years, its almost as long a list as Sunrise ever was. Atlas has almost as many different plows as Sunrise did, but a few of them appear to be variants of the same design.

When we look through Atlas parts, we see holes in detail parts for early diesels, some Alcos and GE units etc... anything they don't make or was tooled long enough ago not to have any details added.

One project I have been working on is a pair of Atlas GP9s in New Hampshire Northcoast. These engines required different horns, bells, plows and other details available from Atlas. The project has become a challenge to see what I can build with currently available detail parts.

It really isn't as bad as it seems when you look around. I wish Sunrise was still around, but I have been able to find replacements for most of what I need (CR signal box being one major exception).

[Mark4]

I would assume the research and design part is the same for any approach, so I didn't bother mentioning it...

And shipping is the same...

And inventory is less or zero...

Again the idea is that say 12 orders for different things come in from different people - 12 completely different items are printed simultaneously and then shipped out.  Or am I mis-understanding the capability of these machines? Can they make two different things in one run?

I mean there has to be a point at which you can make high quality parts at the lowest practical cost in the fastest possible turnaround time, right?  It may not be cheap - it may not be fast - but it might be better than any other solution.

Sorry for the naive approach here - I spent many years in microelectronics cad software development, specifically around optical and electron beam lithography, so I am probably totally misunderstanding something here...

Many (if not most) RP technologies involve a substantial amount of (skilled) labor eg for machine calibration, build-setup (ie generation of supports, laying out/orienting parts etc), trimming off supports, cleanup (rinsing/scrubbing off liquid resin with solvents)  etc. Proportionally they become greater for smaller parts but there is the expectation that prices will be low for these small items. IMHO the real issues are not technical but financial.

[u18b]

(and still begging for a GP15T in N scale)

How many do you want? I can run them tonight

WhoHoo!  I've checked your website (until fairly recently).  And I didn't know they were ready.


Thanks.

[Chulvis]

Is this where RP could play a role?

 The cost of RP is time and materials ...

and the research and the 3D modelling and the machine consumables and the post-build support removal and cleaning and the yield issues plus packaging and arranging shipping...

Mark: You left out the "P" word from the equation.  ;D

[kiwi_al]

Have you guys checked out http://www.printapart.com/

[bbussey]

Nowhere did I see on the website the resolution of the layers.  That is an extremely important variable in the equation, regardless of the scale of the part being rendered.

[bbussey]

I updated the delivery date in the ESM LV G26 thread, and included information on pending G26 part availability.

EDIT: Forgot to add that ESM will start to offer detail parts next month, both plastic and brass.  The first part will be etched 6' Creco doors for the InterMountain 1937 AAR boxcar, including double doors and door stops.  Next will be G26 parts, followed by the XIH heater in the spring.  All parts will be available online only for the time being.