Truck vs Body Mounted

[diezmon]

Is it just me, or does it seem like too many of the posts on this board end up in arguments and pissing matches.. sheesh.   It's getting to the point where you can hardly find the POINT of the thread anymore.



cant' we all just get along?   

[wm3798]

You're missing the point.  I think it's pretty clear that all of us have different areas of interest, and other areas where we are willing to make compromises.  There's some layouts showcased here that are full of electronic wizardry that I'm decades away from understanding. (I've still got those black plastic Bachmann signals standing guard at my junction!)  One of these days, I'll have the money, time and knowledge to correct that.

Dr. Vollmer has created a coherent and believable central Pennsylvania scene through the use of some very well built and detailed structures, yet he used c80 track and oversize signal heads.  He has decided that it's time to make the upgrades necessary to elevate his layout to the new standards he has set for himself...

This is a hobby, maybe more than any other, that is very process driven.  When you build a model car, you paint it, assemble it, maybe even build a diorama for it, then it sits there.  The parts don't have to work, they just have to look good.

With a model railroad, we all start at different points.  Some of us gravitate to locomotives and rolling stock as scale models.  Some of us gravitate toward scenery and structures.  Some toward operations, where the only thing that's important is that the couplers work and the track arrangement allows for realistic switching.

I guess what I'm really trying to say here is that once you've mastered one skill set, it's a natural progression to look at other areas where you can improve.  This isn't snobbery.  It's recognition that this is a learning process, and that we are all in a position to teach something to each other, as well as learn from each other.

This doesn't invalidate your point about the success of Micro Trains standard wheel sets in the N trak environment.  There's plenty of evidence to support that.  There are plenty of members here who work regularly with N trak projects, and that's a good thing.  But even N trak has tiers of quality and craftsmanship.  Compare the work of a Bernie Kempinski or the recently departed Matt Schaefer. with the guy who puts a clever graveyard scene with animated ghosts popping out from behind the headstones...  Equal amounts of passion, different skills, different outcomes.  

I guess it boils down to how you perceive your own participation in the hobby.  When we see an awe inspiring layout, some of us say, "Wow, I could NEVER do THAT!" Some of us say "How in world did he DO that?" and some of us say "I'm going to try to make mine like that!"

None of them are wrong, because in the end, we do all adhere to Rule One.  As such, I think you would agree that it's just as inappropriate to declare one guy's (or one forum's) approach as "snobbery" as it is to call another guy's work junk.  You can't have it both ways.

Lee

[John]

There are other forums out there for finding like-minded modelers if that's your thing.

Unfortunately Inky has alienated all of them .. since he posted on Trainboard that all the forums are "lame"  :'(

[oakcreekco]

You're missing the point.  I think it's pretty clear that all of us have different areas of interest, and other areas where we are willing to make compromises.  There's some layouts showcased here that are full of electronic wizardry that I'm decades away from understanding. (I've still got those black plastic Bachmann signals standing guard at my junction!)  One of these days, I'll have the money, time and knowledge to correct that.

Dr. Vollmer has created a coherent and believable central Pennsylvania scene through the use of some very well built and detailed structures, yet he used c80 track and oversize signal heads.  He has decided that it's time to make the upgrades necessary to elevate his layout to the new standards he has set for himself...

This is a hobby, maybe more than any other, that is very process driven.  When you build a model car, you paint it, assemble it, maybe even build a diorama for it, then it sits there.  The parts don't have to work, they just have to look good.

With a model railroad, we all start at different points.  Some of us gravitate to locomotives and rolling stock as scale models.  Some of us gravitate toward scenery and structures.  Some toward operations, where the only thing that's important is that the couplers work and the track arrangement allows for realistic switching.

I guess what I'm really trying to say here is that once you've mastered one skill set, it's a natural progression to look at other areas where you can improve.  This isn't snobbery.  It's recognition that this is a learning process, and that we are all in a position to teach something to each other, as well as learn from each other.

This doesn't invalidate your point about the success of Micro Trains standard wheel sets in the N trak environment.  There's plenty of evidence to support that.  There are plenty of members here who work regularly with N trak projects, and that's a good thing.  But even N trak has tiers of quality and craftsmanship.  Compare the work of a Bernie Kempinski or the recently departed Matt Schaefer. with the guy who puts a clever graveyard scene with animated ghosts popping out from behind the headstones...  Equal amounts of passion, different skills, different outcomes.  

I guess it boils down to how you perceive your own participation in the hobby.  When we see an awe inspiring layout, some of us say, "Wow, I could NEVER do THAT!" Some of us say "How in world did he DO that?" and some of us say "I'm going to try to make mine like that!"

None of them are wrong, because in the end, we do all adhere to Rule One.  As such, I think you would agree that it's just as inappropriate to declare one guy's (or one forum's) approach as "snobbery" as it is to call another guy's work junk.  You can't have it both ways.

Lee

Well put Lee, well put.

Only a "fortunate few" ................."have it all". The majority focus on one or two areas of modeling as you have stated, and either then move on to another aspect, or are happy with what they have.

Just as in real life, some folks judge, some participate, and some just like throwing stones.

[Mark5]

and some just like throwing stones.

I like trains!

That said, I'd like to go all body mount with couplers, but I'm essentially lazy in the little time I have outside of work. So body mounts are way way down on my list of priorities.

I'd like to get the track laid for starters.

Mark

[bbussey]

The aura of snobbery abounds in human endeavors and railroad modeling has its share. One has to be careful of the circular reasoning process that concludes that my way of doing things is the correct way because it is the way I do things...     

The irony of course, is that you criticize the alleged dismissal of those who wish to stick with the basic standard when you yourself dismiss those who wish to strive for higher standards.  No one here on this thread, except for you, has disparaged others for modeling something other than what they model.

As others have indicated up-thread - many if not most of the modelers who post in this forum wish to push the envelope.  Why is that a bad thing?  I've never seen you complain about all the motive power now featuring body-mounted couplers and closed pilots.  Even the steam engines today come with body-mounted couplers on the tenders.  Yet 20 years ago, the couplers on engines were still truck-mounted.  Were you crusading back then not to have closed pilots on your diesels?

Cabooses have had body-mounted couplers since nearly the beginning.  There is no reason why the rest of the freight equipment can't be designed similarly.  ESM will only offer newly-tooled equipment with body-mounted couplers that rides at the correct height over the rail - that I promise you.  Others such as IM, BLMA and FVM are following suit.  Rapido offers body-mounted couplers on their passenger cars.  MTL also will be body-mounted on the heavyweights.  The wheels of progress are turning slowly, but they are turning.

You say that progress is making it difficult to attract new modelers to the hobby.  I say that what is difficult is trying to attract with tooling based on 40-year-old standards.

[lock4244]

As far as trucks and couplers go, I ain't doin' nothing til we see what Craig has up his sleeve (except puttin' 33" FVM's on a ton of RC bi-levels).

[inkaneer]

There are other forums out there for finding like-minded modelers if that's your thing.

Unfortunately Inky has alienated all of them .. since he posted on Trainboard that all the forums are "lame"  :'(

And they are. Also,  I was also replying to a poster who complained that the trainboard discussion was not what it used to be.  That is partly because of the slowdown in releases of new models especially locomotives.  I was part of the original Atlas forum.  Now that was a great forum!  Sure it had its share of arguments, one of which shut it down but by and large it was a forum where ideas were presented and where real "how to" information could be obtained.  The second Atlas forum was mediocre at best and never close to the original and the third incarnation is even worse.  Trainboard had its heyday also and is probably [to me anyway] the premier forum today.  That may change tomorrow, who knows? 

[Mark5]

Mentioning the old Atlas forum brings back memories of Britney and a certain UP fella.

[Dave V]

It amazes me how stressed some people get about this hobby.  I mean, it's one thing to stress about a project that isn't coming along as well as we'd like.  But some folks seem to get really, really worked up and angry about the hobby.

For the manufacturers, that's one thing; model railroading is their livelihood.  Yet the manufacturers on this forum aren't typically the ones most stressed or angry.

If I were as angry and upset about standards and peer pressure in this hobby as some here I would have left model railroading long ago.  I take great pleasure and joy in my N scale rendition of the Pennsy and Conrail and owe no one an explanation as to the standards I keep.  They are mine and mine alone.  But I find fulfillment in raising those standards as my skills improve.

No one should be in this hobby for anyone but themselves.  If you're more concerned about how others perceive your work than you may never find the satisfaction you're after.

[ednadolski]

No one should be in this hobby for anyone but themselves.  If you're more concerned about how others perceive your work than you may never find the satisfaction you're after.

'n' it's all right now, learned my lesson well
You see, ya can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself 

[Mark5]

Now we've veered into Garden railroading ...  :

 

[Dave V]

Some additional perspective...

We all saw Steve work himself into paralysis because he felt he couldn't have an operating layout that looked as good as he wanted it to.  Model railroading isn't the only hobby with that pitfall.

Years ago when I was an active Civil War re-enactor, I was stationed at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base near Dayton.  A friend and I joined the local "hardcore" unit, the 6th Ohio Volunteer Militia, a.k.a. the "Guthrie Grays."  These guys took it seriously...  It wasn't just about getting drunk on the weekends and shooting blanks at rebels, but about recreating every aspect of the Civil War soldier down to the right number of hand-sewn stitches in a buttonhole.  Yes, where we have rivet counters they have "stitch counters."

Well, it didn't take long for a rift to develop in the unit.  Where most units would camp in relative comfort, we were forbidden even to use shelter halves and so slept in the rain and just ate hardtack.  While this was good on occasion for truly experiencing history, it began to drain the fun from the hobby for me.  Some members of the unit went so far as to boycott the battles because they weren't "realistic" enough, preferring to camp out in the woods by their lonesome with nary a modern convenience.

I always tried to split the difference as I do in model railroading.  I made sure my stuff was "tight."  I had hand-sewn buttonholes and the right leathers and a very accurate repro sack coat.  I used a horsehair toothbrush and eschewed as much modern "stuff" as I could.   But I never gave others crap for their choice, as long as it wasn't so egregious as to violate the rest of us (i.e., Ray-bans on the battlefield).  I would gently encourage friends to consider stepping it up a notch, but always through encouragement and never through shame.

In the end the unit split, with most members going "mainstream" and the extreme "hardcore" guys going off on their own.  I always respected the dedication of the hardcores but noted the mainstreamers seemed to enjoy it more.

I don't suggest we all go grassmats and Unitrack.  Quite the contrary.  My humble opinion is that anything worth doing is worth doing better each time you do it.  But recognize the spectrum...  Most Railwire folks fall on the modeler end of the spectrum, but there's no absolute standard for what constitutes "Railwire-worthy" modeling.

[mcjaco]

It amazes me how stressed some people get about this hobby.  I mean, it's one thing to stress about a project that isn't coming along as well as we'd like.  But some folks seem to get really, really worked up and angry about the hobby.

I'm finding that it seems to be the case in all my hobbies.  There's always a group that takes it way too seriously. 

[MichaelWinicki]

I agree with the others that say that while body-mounted couplers are a good thing to desire, they're pretty far down the list as far as priority goes.  Heck, as long as the truck-mounted stay coupled and I can move cars in reverse without causing derailments I don't consider it a big thing.  Would the cars look better riding a little lower?  Yeah, I they probably would, but at this point I really don't notice all that much.  And I know the folks that see the layout progress don't notice at all. 

Now do they notice trees that don't look realistic?  Or grass that looks the same color from one part of the layout to the other?  Or the lack of telephone poles or street-light fixtures?  Yeah, they do!   ;D  And so do I, so that's where I'm concentrating my efforts initially.  The coupler upgrades and all that stuff come later.