40' double door from 50-footer?

[sirenwerks]

I'm looking at modeling a specific GN 40' double-door boxcar. The Atlas and MT cars would both require heavy modification. I am kinda partial to IM cars, with their separate details and ladders, anyway so I am thinking about cutting down one of their 50' double door kits to 40' as a starting point. Has anyone ever done this or kitbashed with their boxcars that can provide any pointers?

Bryan

[Dave Schneider]

Bryan,

Its hard to offer specifics without some details. Can you post a photo of what you are trying to build?

Best wishes, Dave

[sirenwerks]

Unfortunately, I can't find any images of this car class to link to online, so I've had to scan the image from Scott Thompson's GN Equipment Color Pictorial - Book 1. Here's the car I want to model:



It's an ex-EL 40' double door car the GN leased for lumber service in the early 60s. It's an eight panel box with 4-5 dreadnaught end, 6' Youngstown doors, and, the strongest spotting feature to me, a high sill design that comes up above the door tracks.

In large part because of the separate ladders and detail parts, I'm looking at the IM 50' double door as the starting point:



The left side door track's off a bit to make an exact model, but basically it's a panel length off each end, some sill modifications at the bottom, and some decal rivets. And lowering the car.

Anyone worked with IM cars similarly?

[CoalPorter]

Hey, I'm doing that same car !! (only 2 more years left)  ;D
All I need to do is paint and add decals.
 
IMO, you would be better to start with a Roco/Walthers 40' DD. Cut out the sides from the car and throw the rest away and rebuild with roof and ends from an IM kit. This is better, because the ends will be a better match and the sides need rivits, not welds like the MT car. I think the doors will be closer to correct looking too?

[CoalPorter]

Or you could just glue double doors onto the sides of an IM 40' boxcar (I assume you don't care if the doors open). 

[Sokramiketes]

Hey, I'm doing that same car !! (only 2 more years left)  ;D
All I need to do is paint and add decals.
 
IMO, you would be better to start with a Roco/Walthers 40' DD. Cut out the sides from the car and throw the rest away and rebuild with roof and ends from an IM kit. This is better, because the ends will be a better match and the sides need rivits, not welds like the MT car. I think the doors will be closer to correct looking too?

The Roco DD Boxcar doesn't have the high sill he's after.  Interestingly enough, it looks like the Combo door car did though:

Courtesy of Spookshow's Page:


But, I like where Siren is going with the Intermountain car.  It has the high sill, but I'm pretty sure those are 8' doors, so you'd want to replace them with 6' doors to keep the right proportions.

Cool use of MTL National B-1 trucks too!

[hegstad1]

What CoalPorter said.

I think the easiest and most accurate way to do this is to just add a door to the IM 1937 AAR boxcar.  It will require modifying the door tracks and side sill with styrene strip but that is EASY compared to trying to hack and paste a 50 footer.


A similar concept was used to create the car below.



Actually, this is quite a bit more difficult because I needed the the welded sides and PS ends from a MT car but you can see what is done for the door track and side sill. 

Andrew Hegstad

[sirenwerks]

I should have mentioned that my plan included using the roof from a 40-footer, rather than trying to hack the 50 foot car's roof. And to swap out the ends with a 1937 car, which it looks like has the right 4-5 dreadnaught ends (I think the 50' car comes with 5-5s, at least the 50' single door does)

But let me 'splain my logic and see if this sounds right... I know the 50' car has the 6' doors I am looking for. I thought about using a 40-footer, but they all have 5' doors, which means I have to enlarge the existing opening and add the 2nd door's opening (I know they're all one opening) as well as extending the existing door's track and adding the 2nd door track. The 50' car has the opening's right and door tracks already done.

The kicker for me on the 50' car is that the sill is almost perfect, it extends above the door track like the GN car. Cutting one down will mean the left hand side of the car's panels will be a little off, but I think I can live with that.

BTW, Andrew, I have been lobbying IM to do their HO 40' PS1 in N. If they did, those PS ends would be easily have, given IM's great modular design.

Anyway, let me know if my logic's right or if I am missing something obvious.

Bryan

[hegstad1]

Bryan,

I believe the doors on the 40 foot car ARE 6 footers.  I think the 50' car has 7 foot doors.  This would make the opening too large. 

I was studying your picture some more (I have the same book) and if my eyes are not failing me, the left hand door is larger than the right.  I know the book says they are both 6 feet but it would not be unusual for them to be different sizes.  Ergo, if I were to do this car,  I would stick with the 1937 40 footer and add a SEVEN foot door from a 50' car.  Also upon close examination of the 1937 car,  the side sill extends above the door the same way the 50' car does. 

OK, AFTER FURTHER RESEARCH!

The Northern Pacific had THE EXACT SAME CARS, also leased from A.A. Morrison and coming from the Erie Lackawanna.  The pictures I have of this car clearly show two different sized doors and the attached diagram shows the door opening as 12'4" not 12' which would require one of the doors to be larger than 6'. 


So I guess I stick to my original recommendation and as it turns out, I will need to do this car too!

Brayn,  I hope this helps and despite what I've said, do it the way you feel is best.   

[Dave Schneider]

Bryan,

I would check your door sizes again. I may looking at the wrong car (compared to what you have), but the IM 40' 1937 AAR car I have has 6 foot doors and the low door track/high sill you are looking for. You don't need to cut a bigger door opening. I would fill the opening that is there (opening doors always have a weird gap around them) and glue the left door on the car side. The door track is a piece of cake. This is a welded side car so adding the rivet detail will be the worst part of it, but isn't the DD car welded as well? Anyhow, just my thoughts...your mileage may vary.

This is a great project. I love these 1960-70s cars with their low-rider look where the side sill overlaps the trucks.

And Andrew, another great looking car!. Have you written up any of your work for publication. It is awesome.

Best wishes, Dave

[Dave Schneider]

 

OK, AFTER FURTHER RESEARCH!

The Northern Pacific had THE EXACT SAME CARS, also leased from A.A. Morrison and coming from the Erie Lackawanna.  The pictures I have of this car clearly show two different sized doors and the attached diagram shows the door opening as 12'4" not 12' which would require one of the doors to be larger than 6'. 

I took a look at the 1969 ORER (that thing is getting a workout today) and the GN had a fair number of double door 40' cars. There are about 1200 cars in the series 12000-14499 with door openings from 12'-3" to 12'-6" wide and 9'7" high. The 15000-15499 series is listed as 12' wide and 8'-7" high. Granted, there are errors in the ORER, but it seems possible that there are slight differences in very similar cars.

Best wishes, Dave

[Chris333]

Says they were built in 1945, where did EL get them from? DL&W? I didn't think they had double door cars. It doesn't match anything Erie.
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/box.html

[hegstad1]

Says they were built in 1945, where did EL get them from? DL&W? I didn't think they had double door cars. It doesn't match anything Erie.
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/box.html

Chris,

I re-read the entry from my NP equipment guide by Todd Sullivan.  Here is a direct quote; "NP 38292 is another of the surplus 40' single door boxcars from the Erie and Delaware, Lackawanna & Western railroads leased through A.A. Morrison in 1961-1963.  Some of them were rebuilt into combination door cars and numbered into the 37000 series, and others were rebuilt into double door cars and numbered in the 38000s."

[sirenwerks]

This is an issue I seem to be running into a lot since switching eras. My interest in RRs came about when I was a kid in the 60s and 70s, watching this sort of equipment rolling by, but I wasn't paying attention to the details. Since I just switched from contemporary to early 70s, I am just starting to collect the research I need and it seems harder to find than transition era or contemporary info. I really need to become a member of the WP, NP, GN, etc. historical groups and gain access to the types of drawings Andrew posted, as the books I am collecting are proving only semi-reliable.

Dave, thanks for the heads up on the 40' car's dims. Kleins doesn't carry IM and IM doesn't have the best product photos or info on their site. And they do not answer their email either. Back to the drawing board and time to call IM and grill them, while placing an order.

Bryan

[bbussey]

I should have mentioned that my plan included using the roof from a 40-footer, rather than trying to hack the 50 foot car's roof. And to swap out the ends with a 1937 car, which it looks like has the right 4-5 dreadnaught ends (I think the 50' car comes with 5-5s, at least the 50' single door does)

But let me 'splain my logic and see if this sounds right... I know the 50' car has the 6' doors I am looking for. I thought about using a 40-footer, but they all have 5' doors, which means I have to enlarge the existing opening and add the 2nd door's opening (I know they're all one opening) as well as extending the existing door's track and adding the 2nd door track. The 50' car has the opening's right and door tracks already done.

The kicker for me on the 50' car is that the sill is almost perfect, it extends above the door track like the GN car. Cutting one down will mean the left hand side of the car's panels will be a little off, but I think I can live with that.

BTW, Andrew, I have been lobbying IM to do their HO 40' PS1 in N. If they did, those PS ends would be easily have, given IM's great modular design.

Anyway, let me know if my logic's right or if I am missing something obvious.

Bryan,

The doors on the IM 50-footers are 8-foot doors, as are the doors on the MTL 50-footers.  If your protoype double door has 6-foot doors, I would do as Andrew suggested - start with the standard IM 1937 AAR boxcar and add the additional doors.  And as Dave stated, you don't need to worry about cutting out the door opening unless you plan on modeling the car with the doors open.  If the car requires seven-foot doors, they would have to be fabricated since no manufacturer I believe offers 7-foot doors.  The lower sill extensions can be filed flush so a new straight sill fashioned from styrene strip can be added.  IM has a number of roofs (rectangular panels, triangular panels, etc) that can be employed.  Even the 50-foot roof can be cut down if desired.  The IM car already is modular, so it makes sense to use that as a base.

Have you checked an ORER to confirm what the door opening width is?