ESM G26 65' Mill Gons - I likes!!!!!

[Ed Kapuscinski]

How can anyone entering this hobby afford rolling stock at $25+ prices? 

I somewhat agree. People just entering the hobby probably won't pay $25 for a boxcar when there's another boxcar right next to it on the shelf for $7.

But I don't think people just entering the hobby are ESM's market. It's people who have BEEN in the hobby for a while, who have higher standards, and are willing to spend money to purchase things that meet those standards.

Like I've said, there are still plenty of Trainman cars (and model power, and industrial rail, etc...) out there for the value buyer, but I think what ESM is doing (and Bluford, and a number of other manufacturers) is expanding the higher end market, which exists because of the growth of the hobby. It's a market that probably did not exist 20 years ago when a lot of us got started, but does now because, well, we've been doing this for 20 years now.

[wm3798]

There is something to be said for consistency.   Take five young women for example.  All about average in looks, the typical 'girl next door' types.  No one stands out so as a group, the group looks right.  Now add a 'babe' model.  Instantly the group does not look right.  The babe stands out and makes the other women look worse than they are. 

Inky, do you have photographic evidence to support your hypothesis?    I think I'd be inclined to take 5 Mary Annes over one Ginger!

Where it breaks down for me is that the more detailed model doesn't look all that much better under normal operating and viewing conditions.  With some minor detailing and weathering, even those old duds from the past can be made presentable, and even compatible with the newer more accurate stuff.  Case in point...



A 25 year old ConCor gondola.  No particular prototype, probably not terribly accurate if it is, but adequately beat up to represent a working car.  There's no rivets inside the car, but when it's loaded, who notices, and it's a black car, so when it's not, who notices?  Original cost, probably around $5.  With the addition of MT trucks/couplers, and a modest amount of detailing, the value might be $10.  Yet it's 100% functional in the context of an operations-oriented layout.



A 35 year old Trix/Postage Stamp gondola.  Again, no particular prototype, repainted, lowered and new trucks, couplers and floor added.  Same drill.  Coarse details and a little work are involved, but with minimal cost, it's 100% functional for my purposes.

I'm an inveterate tinkerer, and perpetually trying to stretch (or even find!) my hobby dollar.  Maybe I'm not the typical 21st century model railroader, but that's why I'd prefer to invest some time in building and personalizing a less expensive kit rather than just swipe plastic and open a box.  That's a luxury that, at least in the current economy, I can't afford.  Having been in this game for about 35 years now, I like to think that I'm a more experienced modeler, and I can definitely say that my standards have increased dramatically, especially since I've been interacting with the great modelers here.  Which is another reason why I'm disappointed about the lack of kits.  With experience should come an increase in skill level, so why can't we have the option to build these cars ourselves?  The more I learn, the more I want to DO.  Just as I enjoy working on upgrading those old freight cars, I'd enjoy building up some new ones!

So, as much as I'd like to add a couple of the PC and PRR cars to my fleet, I'm afraid for now, I'm out!

Lee

[Philip H]

I have to agree with Ed.  One of the reasons I am doing a switching layout (aside from space) is that it allows me to focus my rolling stock purchasing and modeling. And I can more easily afford a $20 or $25 car now then when I started doing n-scale in 1979 (I was .

That said, I do ahve a fair number of Trainman box cars, and their predecesors.  Why?  They paint in ICG, which I need for a railroad in Baton Rouge.  KCS is more a mid to high end RR.

[wcfn100]

A 25 year old ConCor gondola.  No particular prototype, probably not terribly accurate if it is, but adequately beat up to represent a working car.  There's no rivets inside the car, but when it's loaded, who notices, and it's a black car, so when it's not, who notices?  Original cost, probably around $5.  With the addition of MT trucks/couplers, and a modest amount of detailing, the value might be $10.

$10 adjusted 25 years is amazingly the same price MBK charges for the ESM flat. 


Jason

[wm3798]

If only my paycheck was keeping up with inflation...  And half of that value came from my efforts, not a Chinese factory...  Re-do your math...

Lee

[Mark5]

A 25 year old ConCor gondola.  No particular prototype, probably not terribly accurate if it is, but adequately beat up to represent a working car.  There's no rivets inside the car, but when it's loaded, who notices, and it's a black car, so when it's not, who notices?  Original cost, probably around $5.  With the addition of MT trucks/couplers, and a modest amount of detailing, the value might be $10.

$10 adjusted 25 years is amazingly the same price MBK charges for the ESM flat. 


Jason

Very true, and no extra investment in Kadee (MT) trucks required.

http://www.westegg.com/inflation

I have a 1983/84 Concor catalog, I'll go look up the price on that gon when I get a chance. (might be less than $5!)


I'm digging the concor paint job - N&W reporting marks on the NW scheme. (not that it didn't happen, but certainly not the norm!). There are other things wrong with the lettering but hell it was 25 yrs ago.

[GaryHinshaw]

FWIW, the Consumer Price Index has grown by a factor of ~2.2 since 1982.  Smaller than I would have guessed.  Also FWIW (not much admittedly), I think we all benefit from having a range of price points available.  The ESM gons are going to make some people very happy.

-gfh

I think I'd be inclined to take 5 Mary Annes over one Ginger!
Lee

Really?   

[bbussey]

Any idea when they left the CR roster?

BTW, we might have a source for photos of brown ones for you. I'll ask around.

Ed,

Don't know.  There weren't that many that survived to get CR reporting marks to start with.

One of your compatriots in the CRHS unearthed the CR ex-PC restencil which is pretty nifty-looking and will be in the third release batch.  But if you can find any pics of the cars with CR reporting marks, any paint scheme, I would be interested.

[Mark5]

This site has interesting data on the G26. Unfortunately the roster "snapshots" end at 1968, when 581 of the original 1650 were still in service:

http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=G26

The retirements must have begun after '63 as 1963 has it at 1630 of the orig. 1650.

[bbussey]

Also, a lot of them were rebuilt into the G26C class and painted in the plain keystone (PK) scheme, which is why there was a dropoff.  Most of the cars that PC and CR inherited were G26C.

Regarding the pricepoints and fidelity to prototype, I want to add these comments:  I co-founded ESM in 1987 because we were unhappy at the time with the lack of equipment offered based on eastern prototypes, let alone prototypical eastern equipment.  At that time, Atlas was the only major N scale manufacturer located in the eastern United States, and the only one that produced eastern models on a regular basis - but it had not yet started tooling the intricate freight car models it offers today.  We set out initially to utilize existing models and put prototypical paint schemes on them.  This included at the time seeking out any good-quality tooling that had been absent for decades from the North American market at the time (Roco 36' ribbed hopper; RivaRossi 40' chemical tank; AHM 3500pd Flexi Flo) and reintroducing it with prototypical schemes.  This later expanded to the passenger car sides and has led to our foray into injection-molded RTR models.  Because we choose to be as prototypical as possible, we have more self-imposed restrictions than other manufacturers do.  The G26 is a car we wanted to do for years, and the ability to do our own digital model design coupled with the contracted tooling house being able to work directly from those digital models made it affordable to proceed with the project.  It is unfortunate that there are only five prototypical paint schemes that can be applied to this model (unlike the Bluford auto parts car, which has dozens and dozens), as it does not allow for perpetual semi-monthly releases and a lower pricepoint.  But we felt it was a signature car of a major railroad that people have desired in every scale for years, and that it was a viable project to pursue.  In hindsight, we probably should have tooled the sides for the G26A and G26C (and the ratchet hand brake component) at the same time, which would have allowed the potential for another nine schemes - but at the time the additional tooling and initial minimums would have pushed the costs too high at a time when we didn't know how well this car would be received (a long car with body-mounted couplers and mandatory LPWs sitting at the prototypical height that couldn't run on 9¾-inch radius).  We will always try to keep the MSRP down, but the ability to do so is directly related to the number of potential schemes and the size of the fleet as well as the intricacy of the model.  The XIH State of Maine boxcar has more components but will have a lower pricepoint because there are more paint schemes that have more appeal, and because the car is slightly less labor intensive to construct.  When we eventually release the F-9 well car, that will have a higher pricepoint than the G26 because of the intricate detail, maximum number of possible paint schemes (6) and the size of the protoypical fleet (under 10).  But it would be another first in N scale (a well car with body-mounted couplers that sits at the prototypical height and has radius restrictions) so it should be well-received even at a higher pricepoint.

I sincerely regret that we could not establish a lower MSRP so that everyone who would want a G26 would feel it was worth the investment.  But I am pleased that the price structure is such that the mail order houses are able to offer the product at a price that most modelers are comfortable with and still have it be profitable for them, as it will encourage them to continue to offer ESM products in the future.

[Chris333]

There are MT cars for $25 just because of their color, same old tooling under it. I dunno I'll buy a correct car for $20 before I buy an incorrect one for $5. I'll pick up a couple State of Maine cars as well.

[Dave V]

The gasoline argument doesn't work for me...  A gallon of gas is a gallon of gas no matter when you bought it.  The N scale cars of 1980 are worlds apart from the level of detail available in 2009.

I also argue that we may not be comparing apples to apples.  Now, are we trying to argue that ESM's G26 is an average car?  Hard to argue when, as Ed points out, it sits on the same shelf as a $7 Trainman car.

Fair would be to compare the ESM gon to the very top-of-the-line in 1980, not your average car.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Fair would be to compare the ESM gon to the very top-of-the-line in 1980, not your average car.

And if you do THAT, then you're talking about brass, which makes these cars an absolute, outta the park, bargain.

[James Costello]

Cheaper than my benchmark - the Red Caboose autoracks....

[bbussey]

Cheaper than my benchmark - the Red Caboose autoracks....

The RC auto racks are absolutely beautiful cars, and hands-down the best N scale auto racks ever made.  Past and present.