Author Topic: MTL confirms "scale width hood" on MTL SD40-2's  (Read 9735 times)

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ztrack

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Re: MTL confirms "scale width hood" on MTL SD40-2's
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2009, 06:51:44 PM »
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Lee, you greatly underestimate Z scale and show the bias that Z scale has endured for many years. You have totally missed the fact Z scale has become a true scale. Yes, we have our coffee tables, but so does N. What you fail to see is the same that many reside in the HO ivory tower fail to notice. That is Z scale has evolved, is offering true prototypical scaled trains, lacks compression and is forging ahead with module clubs, massive scenery, and amazing scenes. Think I am kidding? What scale is this photo?



Yes, Z is not for everyone. But folks, move on and acknowledge a few facts. I can do much more than an HO scaler can do is the same space. I want my trains to be as realistic as possible. I want scale perfection. I don't want compromises. I want to model too scale. I can model a branch line too scale... and will. Not many folks can say this, but we can in Z.  Yes we will notice if details are not right. We as a community continually challenge our manufacturers to do better. That is because we want the best and feel we are are always pushing for more detail, accuracy and options.

Rob
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DKS

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Re: MTL confirms "scale width hood" on MTL SD40-2's
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2009, 09:30:43 PM »
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You know, if you want really accurate models, may I introduce you to my old friend O Scale?

Fer cripe sakes, these things will be whipping around in cute little coffee table layouts, not being used for an historical retrospective on the development of the diesel locomotive.  The out of scale width is probably attributable to the thickness of the plastic.  I know there's a GP diesel out there with brass inserts to achieve a more scale appearance, and that's very clever.  But (not to sound too much like an HO scaler) who the hell can really see it without the aid of a photo enlargement?

But press on...  Someone may stop rolling their eyes long enough to re-tool the whole project for you.

Lee


You know, Lee, I used to have a great deal of respect for you. But after this little rant of yours, it's all gone.

And I know you could give a rat's behind what I think, but do you not recognize your pile of excrement as the same tired old argument that's been used against N scale not all that long ago? And against HO before that?

If you're going to piss on us Z scalers, you could at least do so with some originality.

GaryHinshaw

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Re: MTL confirms "scale width hood" on MTL SD40-2's
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2009, 07:52:25 AM »
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If you're going to piss on us Z scalers, you could at least do so with some originality.

You should hear him talk about T gauge...  ;)

wm3798

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Re: MTL confirms "scale width hood" on MTL SD40-2's
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2009, 09:57:02 AM »
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Listen, there's no doubt that there are practitioners out there who are doing some amazing things in this scale, and I count you guys among them.  And as I re-read my post, I can definitely hear my old HO nemeses words about N scale ringing in my ears.  I suppose as technology marches on, anything is possible.

My rant is more of a derivative of my posts elsewhere in the N scale pages, particularly in the "review" threads where inevitably there is no product on the market that will ever be satisfactory ever in some people's minds, than a slam at Z scale in particular.

This is entirely reflective of my approach to the hobby, which to me is one of imagination and creativity, not technical perfection of every last bit of minutiae.  (David, your efforts in the imagination and creativity departments are unsurpassed, and highly inspirational regardless of scale!)

Yes, I like my models to be accurate to within a reasonable degree, and there are some items that I will avoid because they are way off, but by and large, I can look at my layout comprehensively and be satisfied that I've captured the flavor of what I want without loosing sleep over the idea that a cab is 3 scale inches too wide or a lift ring is missing.  To me that borders on a mental health issue, especially when in Z scale, that 3 scale inches in incomprehensible without the aid of substantial magnification.  Its ridiculous enough in N scale.

That being said, I have to say that all of us ultimately benefit from you envelope pushers, so I'm glad you do what you do...  but jeezy criminy!  Is there anything out there that you like?

Lee


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Mark5

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Re: MTL confirms "scale width hood" on MTL SD40-2's
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2009, 10:01:23 AM »
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Prepare for evasive action. Helm hard to port! ..Hard to starboard! ...
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 10:23:49 AM by NandW »

scaro

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Re: MTL confirms "scale width hood" on MTL SD40-2's
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2009, 10:11:10 AM »
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My rant is more of a derivative of my posts elsewhere in the N scale pages,


As a defence, that rather reminds me of the Queensland politician who explained his lies to a Royal Commission uncovering corruption by loftily opining that  'In this instance, I appear to have accidentally misquoted myself.'
B.

Sokramiketes

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Re: MTL confirms "scale width hood" on MTL SD40-2's
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2009, 11:03:33 AM »
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...without loosing sleep over the idea that a cab is 3 scale inches too wide or a lift ring is missing.  To me that borders on a mental health issue, especially when in Z scale, that 3 scale inches in incomprehensible without the aid of substantial magnification.  Its ridiculous enough in N scale.

Lee

I get the impression that you think Z scale is smaller than it actually is.  It is not half N, but actually just 3/4 of N.  Over width locomotives are plenty visible to the naked eye because it affects proportions when only one dimension of three is changed... some people see proportion differently than others, just like crooked pictures on the wall bother some people and others simply don't notice.  As an architect, I'd think proportion would be easy to spot for you.  So then the question comes down to how familiar you are to the prototype.  If you're not familiar with it, then you'll never notice it, no matter how well your eye is trained.

It doesn't have as much to do with the smaller scale, or needing magnification, or whatever.

As far as being happy, I'm happy with my AZL SD75i's in Z scale.  They solved the same design issue that MTL experienced, and came up with a very clever solution.  So the puzzle has been solved, other manufacturers can step up to the plate if they're willing.

DKS

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Re: MTL confirms "scale width hood" on MTL SD40-2's
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2009, 11:31:41 AM »
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Yes, I like my models to be accurate to within a reasonable degree, and there are some items that I will avoid because they are way off, but by and large, I can look at my layout comprehensively and be satisfied that I've captured the flavor of what I want without loosing sleep over the idea that a cab is 3 scale inches too wide or a lift ring is missing.  To me that borders on a mental health issue, especially when in Z scale, that 3 scale inches in incomprehensible without the aid of substantial magnification.  Its ridiculous enough in N scale.

Skibbe beat me to it, but here it is put another way to help bring this thread back to its original point. We're not talking about three scale inches here, or about missing lift rings. These models are over a foot and a half too wide, amounting to a 25% discrepancy. Even with my failing eyesight, I can tell the difference between this two models:



Now, if it really was only three scale inches or a missing lift ring, I'd be right there with you claiming it was "close enough." But this is an obvious cosmetic flaw, and it may not bother you, but it bothers some of us. And, it bothered a manufacturer enough to do something about it.

But what really bothers me most is that you chose to use this discussion as an excuse to issue a blanket condemnation of a great many modelers who have chosen to work in a demanding scale. I accept that Z will never rival any other scale in popularity, but that does not diminish the value of what we achieve.

Is there anything out there that you like?

Yes. I like the loco on the left. (And the one on the right has a very useful mechanism.)
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 11:42:23 AM by David K. Smith »

wm3798

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Re: MTL confirms "scale width hood" on MTL SD40-2's
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2009, 11:47:02 AM »
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Well I can agree with you there.  But if we're splitting hairs, why worry about the width of the hood if you've got that big open pilot screaming "Toy Train" at you?  Everywhere in every scale there are compromises, and some are more willing to accept that, and some are willing to commit the time and powlabber to try to change it.

I'll concede the point, and apologize to any toes that might have been trampled...

I can't see any Z scale equipment because I don't have any, nor the budget (or desire) to pursue it.  I only know what I've picked up on the street corner through peer pressure. ;D

Lee
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Lee Weldon www.wmrywesternlines.net

DKS

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Re: MTL confirms "scale width hood" on MTL SD40-2's
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2009, 11:48:24 AM »
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Well I can agree with you there.  But if we're splitting hairs, why worry about the width of the hood if you've got that big open pilot screaming "Toy Train" at you?  Everywhere in every scale there are compromises, and some are more willing to accept that, and some are willing to commit the time and powlabber to try to change it.

Lee, you're really stepping in it deep today.

You mean this gaping pilot hole?



AZL offers this as an option for those of us who prefer not having our models screaming Toy Train at us.

And for what it's worth, the Micro-Trains SD40-2 won't have big open pilots, either.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 11:56:58 AM by David K. Smith »

Sokramiketes

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Re: MTL confirms "scale width hood" on MTL SD40-2's
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2009, 11:54:03 AM »
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Well I can agree with you there.  But if we're splitting hairs, why worry about the width of the hood if you've got that big open pilot screaming "Toy Train" at you?  Everywhere in every scale there are compromises, and some are more willing to accept that, and some are willing to commit the time and powlabber to try to change it.

Lee, you're really stepping in it deep today.

You mean this gaping pilot hole?

I miss you around here David.

In addition to AZL including pilots to be modeler installed... filling a pilot is something the modeler can correct, and relatively easily.  Sectioning Athearn hoods in HO scale to make scale width models was hard enough in the 80's.  It's basically impossible to do in Z scale with the derth of scale parts to add after you chop up the hood components.  The MTL model simply isn't salvageable unless you can ignore the width.  A fundamental flaw, an itch you can't scratch, is a lot different than missing detail that can be added.  That's all we're saying.

wm3798

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Re: MTL confirms "scale width hood" on MTL SD40-2's
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2009, 11:59:57 AM »
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Not fair, David...  I based my comment on the photo provided... you were withholding evidence! ;D

I do remember reading your thorough comparison of these two models, and that each had its strengths and weaknesses...  I can't recall what the issues were with the AZL model, but you did point one or two out, as I recall.

I shall now retreat to my fox hole.  Thanks for the follow up.

Lee
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Lee Weldon www.wmrywesternlines.net

tom mann

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Re: MTL confirms "scale width hood" on MTL SD40-2's
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2009, 12:10:32 PM »
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You guys are working too hard for Lee:  a man who is not in Z, will not buy any products in Z, and will never be in Z! ;D

Ryan87

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Re: MTL confirms "scale width hood" on MTL SD40-2's
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2009, 12:15:17 PM »
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Mmmmm... Crow  ;D
Swimming in a sea of Action Red...

wm3798

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Re: MTL confirms "scale width hood" on MTL SD40-2's
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2009, 12:50:08 PM »
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I just like poking the stick in the cage once in awhile! ;D
Thanks for the entertainment!

Rockin' It Old School

Lee Weldon www.wmrywesternlines.net