Why Do You Think People Quit Model Railroading?

[up1950s]

Wow Chris , I am saving that site . I hope they have enough temper though . I have some larger household bits that bend , and dull easily .

[Chris333]

I hope so too, just ordered 40. Maybe if I wear my way through them all I should quit the hobby?

[Walkercolt]

I was getting sets of blue steel miniature drill bits from China for $6, that would drill steel and had lots more flex than exspensive bits. Place quit carrying them. :'( Mascot sells sets of miniature bits for a reasonable price, but they don't sell packs of individual sizes. I think I've got a place bookmarked or in a file that sells bits smaller than #80, but they are exspensive.

[Mark5]

What, do you reckon, are the most common causes for why people who are interested enough to start up with this hobby, eventually quit it?

No idea. I've been dormant for long periods but I have no inkling to quit - I like it.

Mark

[FloridaBoy]

There is one delicate subject that hasn't been touched here.  Reading some of the other posts on this topic one gathers that the factors are valid, but if a model railroader is fully committed and dedicated and really loves the hobby and what it entails, those factors can be put aside and overcome.  I know I have gone through 2 divorces, moves to new homes, financial changes, having children, space limitations, major health issues, and while I was down, I missed the hobby, particularly the joy of running my trains.  I am not the best modeler or model railroader or most knowledgeable by far, but my enthusiasm has been unwavering since the early eighties when I returned to the hobby.  I can remember being away from home on vacation for a week, coming in the door at 2AM, and dying to run my trains.  My wife thought I was nuts, and she was right.

However, what discourages me are rivet counters and nit pickers sometimes.  For example, my layout was on display on a tour for an NMRA Regional, and my garage full of people, and this loudmouth and his wife and idiot son were bad mouthing my selection of PRR, son hiding behind my mountain and derailing my trains as they passed, and the wife was rationalizing the husband. Jim Kelley from Model Railroader was visiting, and I was truly embarassed, but he came to my rescue, by asking the nitpicker how large his layout was, and of course, he didn't have any, nor did he ever build one.  I keep a framed quote from Teddy Roosevelt on my wall, and Jim just pointed to it, and it shut them right up.  I have had some discouraging comments from club members, friends, and sometimes I wonder why I show or share anything about my layout or trains to anyone.  I can imagine others with lesser committment levels to be subject to the same treatment, and just "put the D#$@#mn trains away".  There are a lot of guys out there thinking, I know, cause I have heard it, if they didn't have that level anyway to withstand it, then we don't need you.  The problem is that we need everyone.

Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman

[Ed Kapuscinski]

However, what discourages me are rivet counters and nit pickers sometimes. 

But that guy wasn't a rivet counter, he's just a jerk.

I think this is one of the things that actually discourages me in the hobby. People who try and do something that pushes the envelope, or who care about fidelity get labeled as "nit pickers" or "rivet counters", and vilified, when, in reality, it's people who are just jerks who are responsible for the problems.  The real issue is when jerk + rivet counter happens, and people then associate rivet counter with jerk.

I'm not gonna argue that they don't often correlate, but it's important to remember that the they are not causatory of one another.

[John]

Nothing wrong with rivet counters that actually have modeling skills, and back up those rivits.

[Zox]

Nothing wrong with rivet counters that actually have modeling skills, and back up those rivits.

Actually, there can be something wrong with that. When someone with great skill looks at your work and pronounces it worthless, that's even more discouraging than when some loudmouth jerk does it.

What if, for example, Tom Mann told you that your weathering sucked, and that if you can't get it right you really shouldn't bother trying? Or if you showed John Armstrong your layout plan and he glanced at it, handed it back, and broke out laughing? (No, I don't think either of these people would really act that way.)

I know there are complaints here about other boards, where any bit of tripe gets praised to the heavens. But there's got to be some room between "you r0xx0r" and "your efforts are not worthy of my gaze" for constructive criticism to sneak in.

[John]

Nothing wrong with rivet counters that actually have modeling skills, and back up those rivits.

What if, for example, Tom Mann told you that your weathering sucked, and that if you can't get it right you really shouldn't bother trying?

When is the last time you saw one of my weathering jobs :

[Ian MacMillan]

Rob, you obviously missed the point. Often rivet counters get grouped in with dinks, where as it is that there are dinks that are rivet counters. As in all groups there are a few bad apples that ruin the bunch. Alot of people seem to be confusing those who are pushing the envelope with those who are looking to be little people. I consider myself a rivet counter, but not a dink... What others think who knows.

THEN again, is extreme dink headdedness really all that better than when we tell some one "GREAT JOB! PERFECT WORK!!! EXACT DETAIL OMG WHERE HAVE I BEEN!? I THINK THAT IS THE BEST THING EVER SEEN on something that is SOOOOOOOOOO horrid, when really that person really needs is some constructive points to better their skills?

Seriously, when was the last time we all didnt need to better or skills? If you are complacent with what you can do, I think you need to find another hobby, because you finished this one. But it also has always been my opinion that if you post it online for all to see, its fair game for everyone, good comments, GI Joe Kung Fu grip comments, and go pound sand you suck comments. You just take it as it is and move on. If you can't take all comments from all angles, then I would suggest you knowingly post in a private area where you can self moderate what comments are being made.

[Zox]

Rob, you obviously missed the point.

Obviously I did miss the point, since I really don't see where we disagree.

I certainly wasn't trying to malign "rivet counters." I simply meant to point out that being dumped on by someone with extraordinary skill is not better than being dumped on by an idiot. In fact, it can hurt more, if you value the skilled person's opinion and they offer you nothing constructive.

I used to belong to an artists' circle online, where we would critique each other's work to help each other improve. We had many members more skilled than myself, and a few less so. When I commented on anyone else's work, I had a few simple principles I followed:

• I critiqued the work; I did not criticize the artist.
• I made it very clear that I was expressing my personal opinion, not Absolute Truth.
• I could always find one thing where the artist had excelled beyond their usual efforts.
• I could always find one thing that could be improved.

I try to keep these principles in mind in other contexts, as well. The first two ("no personal attacks" and "it's just my opinion") help to avoid flame wars. The last two ("one good thing" and "one bad thing") help to insure that learning takes place.

You seem to be objecting to people who don't include the "one bad thing," and I agree that's vital--without negative feedback, a critique is little more than an ego boost.

But everyone needs a little ego boost--the "one good thing"--or they'll get discouraged. And then, be it drawing, model railroading, or any other hobby, they may start asking themselves why they bother.

[tom mann]

Ed brings up a good point that should be brought up more often:  if a person with extraordinary, detailed-oriented skills dumps on your work, it is because that person is a jerk - period, and first and foremost.  If he is a rivet-counter, that is besides the point; just like if he wears size 11.5 shoes or drives a Fiat 500. 

But this is all a moot issue anyway.  In my experience, the rivet-counters are almost always helpful and generous with their time and advice.  The pages and pages I received from Rich Yourstone and Jos Guerts on weathering and trees took them a long time to write.  Jamie (Lashedup) spent a some time critiquing my photos for the weathering book. 

Bob Gillmore called this phenomenon the "Rivet Counter Boogeyman": a supposed "evil" person only perceived to exist.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

The "boogeyman" is a common theme across the world.

The "liberal" boogman, the "right wing nutjob" boogeyman, the "east coast elite", the "flyover states", all of these are boogeyman constructs that get used every day.

"Rivet counters" are just our own little versions.

[tom mann]

"Rivet counters" are just our own little versions.

Actually, it is like a straw man: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Ahh, right, yes. That's what I meant! Thanks Tom.