Z Scale Truck and Coupler Guide

[DKS]

be oblivious to the errors of others

This is such a crock of $hit that I simply cannot believe it.

And George... he's another one. Don't get me started...

[Robbman]

I don't understand this "woe is me, we try hard" arguement.  Does that work for anyone else in their jobs, or just when making toy trains?

Sure as heck doesn't work for me when making 'toy' trains...

[ztrack]

Is anyone truly surprised by these remarks?

The fact is, no one was harsh on the recall of the GN dome car. Everyone was very understanding. Mistakes happen and frankly, I think most of us are happy to see MTL address the issue. So I don't understand the need to respond.

But the mention of blogger is obvious. David, I see nothing wrong with your article. It is excellent, well researched and completely thorough. I for one will stand behind your review and assessment. As AZL's distributor, I would love to have seen AZL on top, but those new couplers from Bowser address many issues and facets that we Z scalers desire. Again, I see no reason to respond or defend a product line in this case. You are simply reinforcing what we already know.

As I stated in my open letter to forums, why not promote one strengths? Standing behind your products is totally acceptable. But it is not acceptable to discredit the individual. Why make this personal? That is what I don't understand. This is what is causing divides in our hobby and the perception of rifts between the manufacturers.

I do leave everyone with this thought. These comments are not the official stance of MTL as a company. It is important to separate this. MTL as a company is doing some wonderful moves to promote and help Z grow. I for one am very happy to have MTL in our fold. They are a big reason Z scale is growing and I really respect this. But I also know that these comments that continually are posted are hurting the sales of MTL and their perception as a company.

Rob

[Sokramiketes]

But it is not acceptable to discredit the individual. Why make this personal? That is what I don't understand. This is what is causing divides in our hobby and the perception of rifts between the manufacturers.

Bingo, and making things personal is Joe's standard operating procedure.  I actually don't have a problem with MTL as he suggests frequently.  Just Joe... You'd be surprised at some of the things I received via private message back when I was active at Trainboard. 

[ztrack]

Mike, I would not be surprised. Like you, I have receive quite a few private emails. I have also endured many accusations and questions about my integrity. It has been frustrating. I believe in honesty and open dialog. But anymore, one is afraid to open their mouth and face the consequences of personal attacks. For me, I look back at the stances I have taken with a realization that time has shown that I was correct in my assessments.

But, today, the Z forums have lost many outstanding and talent individuals who no longer see value in posting. They negativity and biases by a few have tainted what these forums had hoped to achieve. The sense of community is fractured.

The one part that I have to laugh about is that reviews and critiques should not be viewed as a negative. All of us want to see better products, more quality and companies succeed. We are not against any company. We all just want to see them be the best they can be. AZL is on their 3rd generation of couplers based on consumer feedback. MTL recalled their GN dome cars due to an error. These are examples of companies who want to be better. I applaud this.

What I don't want to see is manufacturers cutting corners for the sake of a 'more economical' product. Z scale has always been about quality. We have paid more for that quality, but with very positive results. I do hope that all Z manufacturers continue to stress quality of products over a self imposed price point. This ties back to David's excellent guide which shows how AZL and now Bowser/Full Throttle are pushing for better quality, more accurate products. I like seeing this in our scale and hopes it continues.

Rob

[DKS]

I know there are those who have little to do with their lives other than find fault with us...and as George noted, be oblivious to the errors of others. Sad for them really...because we all make mistakes but we try and that counts for a lot in my book. We have two choices as I see it, enjoy the hobby and encourage others to bring their collective expertise to the table, or we can narrow our focus and try and make a name for ourselves making assumptions in posts or editorials that have little bases in reality. I think the first allows us to enjoy the hobby and the latter is only satisfying to the blogger and does no one any good. We made a huge mistake, and some are happy to see that because it validates some paradoid perception of MTL the rest of us see it for what it was...human and move on. We hope to do better next time, we will continue to make mistakes, nature of the process I guess.

You know, the more I read this, the more pathetic it becomes. Joe is railing against the very thing he's becoming: the one with the "paranoid perception"--everyone's out to get him. It's all about Joe, Joe, Joe. Maybe Eric should not give him such a long leash. I mean, it's nice and all having someone representing a big player in the hobby out here rubbing elbows with us little people, but he's not doing Micro-Trains any favors carrying on like this.

Yes, there's a lot of Micro-Trains-bashing, and some of it's unnecessary, but they brought a lot of it on themselves; they've painted a big target on their backs by claiming they're the best thing since sliced bread. And yes, they make some good stuff, but the good-to-foobie ratio seems a bit high for the "Cadillac" of the industry. So, when they make mistakes, and some very learned individuals out here provide them with valuable expertise gratis, why does it seem to be for naught? Do they perceive any criticism--constructive or otherwise--as all criticism, and therefore negative? Or are they so high up on their horse that they don't hear us any more?

M-T's like Detroit in the 70s: while the Japanese were busy improving their cars each year with the goal of producing the highest quality product, M-T just keeps doing the same thing over and over. Like Rob said, AZL is on their third coupler in two years. Meanwhile, M-T is still milking the same 80s era tooling, leaving modelers stuck in a time warp. And they've become fixated on hitting price-points, not quality-points, and that's starting to make them look like the Model Power of Z scale.

Joe may dismiss us "self-satisfying bloggers" as irrelevant, but guess what: we're his employer's customers. If he'd pay attention, instead of covering his ears chanting "la-la-la, I can't hear you," he might actually begin to realize that at least some of what he perceives as bashing is really a recommendation on how to actually be the industry leader, instead of just claiming to be.

[DKS]

Interesting exchange over at Trainboard...

Originally Posted by Joe D'Amato 
Glen

posts or editorials that have little bases in reality. I think the first allows us to enjoy the hobby and the latter is only satisfying to the blogger and does no one any good.

Joe
MTL

I think this is trite.

For anyone who questions the 'bases in reality', the objective information in the bloggers' article has been presented in a useful table of measurements.

If that is not a base in reality, what is ?

And it is a resource for modelling, just as the products of any manufacturer are.

Ben

Ben

I wasn't questioning "an" article...if you are talking about the article on trucks, I don't see anything wrong with it...lots of good stuff to digest. It's the other blathering that goes on about MTL that has "little bases in reality". Generally pronouncements are made about our intent or our competence by folks who claim expert status, but almost never have I had them approach me and ask why something is the way it is. I take that back, I did have one guy who beat us up for making our cars too high...about a scale foot in N scale. When I explained that we had to deal with coupler height standards that prevented us from dropping bodies any more...and that doing so would negate most of the end details...I thought the question was answered. You'd think. Days later the same fellow launched another series of attacks (and continues to do so) on us for our cars being too high. Funny, he never talks about the excess height of some of the Atlas Cars...hummm... Given the information (at least he asked unlike most) he still felt the need to take out his frustrations on us. Well, you can't fight stupid as my Dad always said...sometimes you just need to walk away from a fight that's not worth winning. Folks have a right to their opinon, but I also have a right to mine...and I don't think that's "Trite". Being a manufacturer we have to be all things to everyone, and on any given day, one group or another is going to have an issue with us. Fair. Like I said, we make mistakes and will continue to make mistakes...just like everyone else. We made a mistake on the markings on one side of a car...one car out of 12 for that month....one car out of 144 plus produced in a year. I think that shows we do our best to watch what happens here. But, based on emails I got afterwards, you'd think we should pack up and go out of business for such a horrible transgression. Nature of the beast. I have learned over the years here to tune out most of the chatter...people are people. Sometimes it goes to far and I fee obligated to at least take a stand. It's not wrong to have pride in your work and want to defend 80 other people in the building that can't defend themselves, you seem like a reasonable guy, I'm sure you'd do the same. So to the article on trucks and couplers...no harm, no foul...I may question some of the assumptions, but it's not enough to get into a cat fight over. Overall, it's the kind of info that is important to everyone and I welcome it.

Cheers

Joe
MTL

I'm disappointed. I wanted a cat fight...

[tom mann]

I'm glad he didn't have a problem with the article.  Like Ben said, it included a table of measurements and photos.  It said something like "the MT is the only choice for auto operations".

I viewed it as informative and not as an editorial against one manufacturer or another.

[scaro]

Well, if he's clarified his view, at least on the truck and coupler thing, that's OK with me.  Initially it was not clear whether his complaints related to 'The Blogger' or others.

The other stuff about wrong lettering doesn't worry me as I model mainly Nn3 . . .  I was considering doing a little bit of Rock Island in Z, but I was discouraged by the MT GP hood thing when I saw my first one in a shop in New York, and having seen T last week in a shop here in the UK, I'm kind of distracted by that at the moment, particularly the Victorian Railways (Aussie) afficianados and their work.

Though I think the chances of getting a working hood unit in that scale are about zilch at the moment . . .  happy to be proved wrong 

Luckily Victoria has a variety of electric and diesel multiple unit stock . . .

Ben

[Sokramiketes]

Well, if he's clarified his view, at least on the truck and coupler thing, that's OK with me.  Initially it was not clear whether his complaints related to 'The Blogger' or others.

Well, my opinion of Joe is skewed, but if he wasn't talking about David as "The Blogger" then who the heck else is running a blog?  Is he talking about Ed K's TTAMT post about MTL?  Seems like he's just talking his way out of some backlash that he wasn't expecting.  Guess Trainboard hasn't rooted all the backlash yet... 

[DKS]

...but if he wasn't talking about David as "The Blogger" then who the heck else is running a blog?

I was going to answer "plenty of other blogs out there," but did some quick checks and couldn't easily find any others where the blogger regularly ranted about Micro-Trains (aside from the nearly moribund TTAMT, anyway).

[scaro]

Mike, David,

You're probably right, but I have a low opinion of Trainboard generally, and have no intention of hanging around there for a flame war. 

I'm just glad for Railwire and blokes like yourselves and Chris (Bambuko) who don't mind insane questions about things like Z scale broad gauge (!) and where I can ask questions about fatness of MT hood and squishedness of Marklin F7 without getting the equivalent of the looks you get when you fart in church.

Ben

[DKS]

Well, it looks as if a bit of a flamer is starting up there again right now.

Joe is on the defensive again, with George as his wing man...

http://www.trainboard.com/grapevine/showthread.php?t=107252&page=5

[John]

Hmmm '

Caddilac = GM = Bankrupt?

[John]

I think David did a great job with his review. Some of the commentary is getting a little personal. Please don't attack someone who is not a member here.