Steamheads - ATSF Articulated Mallets

[kiwi_al]

How would you go about utilising  2 Kato Mikado 2-8-2 mechanisms to scratchbuild a Santa Fe 2-10-10-2. I was hoping to use Max's technique to turn each mikado mechanism into 2 2-10-0 mechanisms and let the front engine swing. I have a Walthers 2-8-8-2 to look at but thought  the Mikado wouldn't be a bad starting point - I could be wrong on this.

Prototype here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ATSF_3000.jpg

cheers

Alister

[Chris333]

I posted a bunch of links to Atlas.

I didn't have Max's article so I used Tony's here:
http://borhs.org/ModelerMag/BO_Modeler_3_2007_SepOct.pdf

[3rdrail]

Personally, I think you'd have a driver diameter problem here. The Kato Mikado has 63" drivers, while the AT&SF 2-10-10-2  had 57" drivers. That's only 6", but multiply by ten axles and you're talking about a significant increase in length (5 feet).

See plan at http://www.railroadingonline.net/railroads/atsf/drawings/c3000.gif

[randgust]

The May 1989 Model Railroader has drawings.  Theyt show up on the index search.

With 57" drivers, it was a rather ungainly looking beast. 

They sure didn't last long.  Apparently there were based out of Winslow and Ash Fork (way before the Crookton Cutoff was built in the 1960's) which was worse than Raton to get a train over.   I've seen a few pictures of them in Winslow and Flagstaff, I don't know that I've ever actually seen a picture of them PULLING anything.

I was looking for one of those clearance diagrams and you got it here already.  Probably the way to approach it is look from first axle center to rear axle center of each 10-coupled unit (don't necessarily focus on driver diameter due to flange clearances).  Just for the 'DUH' factor, can anybody do that on a Trix 2-10-0?  Turning the flanges is a lot easier on a decent chassis than making a new chassis.  Those had smaller drivers than the actual to get it all in.

The dimension here on a PRR I1s is what I'm talking about - 22'8":
http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=I1s_TypeEsh-71528.gif&sel=ste&sz=sm&fr=

That clearance diagram on the 3000 class is showing like 19' 9
" - I think.....so yeah, that would be noticeable. 

If you're a gambler at heart there's one of those Trix 2-10-0's out on 'Bay right now BIN for $59, that's a deal.

[kiwi_al]

Thanks for the advice guys,
I did post this on Atlas as well to get a wide range of feedback.
I'll get that back issue Randy and I do have a Trix 2-10-0, I have a lot to think about,  I'll measure up   the Mikado model and the concor 2-10-2 and check the clearances. I'd want to make it as prototypical as possible and it has to run right.

Thanks Chris. I am using that (Tony's) as a reference along with Max's if I go that route   ;D

Thanks again Gregg, I hadn't realised that.

I'll be measuring up the 3 models I have to check out clearances and see how close I get to  the prototype.

Your comments have been a great help - thank you

cheers

Alister

[Kisatchie]

Here is a picture of the 2-10-10-2:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ATSF_3000.jpg

[Walkercolt]

The 2-10-10-2 was a dismal failure. It didn't have nearly enough grate area so it would have to stop on a grade and build-up another head of steam. It's articulated boiler leaked like a sieve, and the monster spent most of it's life in the shops than on the road. It was cut-up into two 2-10-2's that were actually good engines for their day. BTW, I checked right after that drawing appeared in Model Railroader about have one custom built in brass, in Japan. Reply then was "$2500, 9-12 months." Almost wish now I had had it built. Even with both sets of drivers articulated, I don't know if it would have been happy on 28" N-TRAK radii. The thing is so ugly, it's pretty, to me. The whale-back tenders I don't think lasted much past WWI on the Santa Fe. For the Santa Fe, they were pretty small.

[randgust]

Don't forget that Santa Fe expirimented with a bunch of true compound Mallets, I think they had 2-6-6-2, and two unique 4-4-6-2 locomotives that also had hinged boilers, and ungainly high drivers.  Equally unsuccessful. I'm not sure if Santa Fe was the only railroad to expiriment with doubling the boiler size, hinging the boiler in the middle and NOT increasing the firebox size, but that was never repeated by anybody else.

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/sf1169.jpg

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/sf1301.jpg

I think 1301 is possibly the ugliest articulated of all time.  I mean, if you did a kitbash of that thing without the prototype proof, you'd be laughed at.

That's also the reason why Santa Fe never did any modern articulateds like the western roads - these miserable failures.  The 1790 class 2-8-8-2's were borrowed N&W units.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Those early mallets sure are interesting buggers. Very cool stuff.

[up1950s]

The UP had 1 or more from the ATSF or SP , called them Ocean Toads .
"Ocean Toads" 1909 Monster Mallets"

[Walkercolt]

Santa Fe never had anything but bad luck with Mallets, even the one's "borrowed" from the N&W. I'm pretty sure the "Toads" were ex-SP's. I don't own the Stagner book(but a friend does), and I'm pretty sure ATSF cut-up all thier Mallets into "standard" engines. Santa Fe always used bituminous coal, so they didn't get great heating from their coal engines, and the distances on the Santa Fe were always hard on steam engines. The "Santy" used-up and threw-away steamers like cheap batteries in a digital camera. Not many ATSF road engines made their 20th birthday.

[brokemoto]

All Tramps Sent Free was always trying to design locomotives that would operate long distances.  It once ran a 3460 series hudson on a train from Chicago to Los Angeles just to see if it would make it.  It did.

The articulateds were supposed to be strictly for helper work, but the nasty hills on ATSF required numerous gallons of water to be heated.  Topeka never could get it together on that one.  ATSF preferred Baldwin power almost to the exclusion of the other builders.  It did get some very good power from them.  Still, as with anything mechanical, if you are going to work it hard, it is going to require more frequent servicing and it will wear out more quickly to the point that it will become uneconomical to repair.  Compare a car driven five-hundred miles monthly to one run around the clock as a taxicab.  Assume that both receive proper maintenance at the manufacturer's intervals.  The former will still be running in twenty years and will still look nice; the latter will have been in a scrap heap after five, if not sooner.

[Walkercolt]

Oh, yeah. From Raton to Bakersfield there were only three "running repair" shops on the Santy. They just didn't have heavy repair facilities all along their route. And the Santa Fe really tried to make speed across the West. They tried to run freight (perishables) trains at an average of 40MPH(actually 37MPH was their "target" I think) from LA to Chicago. I don't think anybody does that today. The famous "Bull Moose" 4-4-2 took "Death Valley Scotty" and his wife from CA to Chicago at an average speed of 67MPH in 1915, I believe. 50-odd hours. That's Super Chief speed with steam.

[kiwi_al]

 ;D ;D ;D

The insanity starts....................



First brass cuts to construct the boiler............

[randgust]

Gotta start watching this one.  How DO you put a hinge in an N scale boiler?