Signal system and signals for an N-TRAK layout?

[Walkercolt]

As Minister of Things Electronic, my mission is to try and develop a signaling system for our N-TRAK layout. We have three lines, from out-side to in, Red, Yellow, Blue(branch). Red line is now normally DCC'ed, so if we want to signal it, not too much trouble. The Yellow and Blue are regular DC and a "blocked" into four very large blocks. This gets hairy. The layout is 60'X90'. Fearless Leader would love SP "lower Quadrent" semiphores. That's not that much harder than tri-color signals, but the detection circuits, miles of wiring, and boxes of electronics, end up costing mega-bucks. We tried a set of "N-TRAK" signals...not impressed at all. The Atlas signal "system" is WAY too "wiring intensive" for this size layout(and gets too darn exspesensive). Any ideas, or people who I can talk to? So far, people like Bruce Chubb, and a couple of others, have told me much, much wiring, and we can't make a "rule" that the last car in the train have a resistor on conductive wheelsets for detection...not "N-TRAK" friendly(anybody can run what they brung). Help.... ??? :'( :

[wm3798]

I'll preface this by saying that what I know about electronics can fit on the head of a pin, but couldn't some sort of wireless infrared something or other be rigged up?  I'm thinking an optical detector, that lets the circuit know that a train is coming, then a wireless signal that beams the directions to the signal mast so it knows what to do...  You'd probably need line of sight, but N trak is usually pretty linear, or you could even rig it up so the signal beam is thrown below the table.

You'd probably end up opening and closing garage doors all over town when you have an open house, too... 

I obviously have no idea what I'm talking about, but if you end up inventing something along these lines and getting rich, I still want a cut! ;D

Lee

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Do you want it to work like a real signal system, or to look like it works like a real signal system?

[Skip]

If you want it to look like a signal system, its fairly simple.  What I did on our TTRak modules is I used two bridge rectifiers to get power from the DCC rails.  They are switched on by the turnout, so only one is getting power at a time.  The outpot voltage lights the proper LED (through 1000 ohm resistors).  So, at a turnout we have a green and yellow LED coming into the turnout (green when straight through and yellow for the diverging route).  Coming from the other direction there are Red and Green LEDs to show either the turnout is set to pass through, or stop and align the turnout.  It looks good, and can be installed easily within the module.  If you want signaling along the main, a simple block detector could be installed on each module.  As for the EOT, why not have the club provide the trailing boxcar or caboose for anyone running on the red line?  Then you could have resistance wheelsets and members would not have to provide them.

[bicknell]

I would actually like to see an NTrak RP for signaling.  It seems to me 90% of the modelers would be happy with two basic signal functions:

1) Signals that indicate turnout position.

2) Basic block occupancy signals.

If you block the line (e.g. turnout set to diverge, or a train) send "red" to the next block.  If you are receiving a "red", send "yellow" to the next block.  If you're receiving yellow, send "green" to the next block.   If you're receiving green send green on.  Block occupancy could be done by light sensors, DCC transponding, DC current detection, or any other method that works. 

If there was a standard for connections between modules those who wanted signals could do it, and those who did not could be "jumpered around" and just be in the middle of a block.  Go with something cheap enough and people might be willing to add the $2 cable to the bottom of their module even though they have no signals.

If we want to bring cost down having a standard is key.  IF manufacturers knew by building a product to the spec they had a bigger market, there would be more signals, and more competition. 

[inkaneer]

We operate under a warrant system.  You sign up for a time slot and one of the tracks and you run whatever you want in your time slot.  We have found that operating more than one train per track at train shows becomes extremely difficult due to the interaction with the people.  Distractions are frequent and disasterous. One of the purposes of a club is to promote comraderie but that is not accomplished when you are your hands and knees looking for wheelsets or parts and pieces of rolling stock that did the high dive off the layout. We run strickly analog but there is a DCC N gauge club here also [non Ntrak] that sets up a modular layout and they have changed to a one train one track operation also due to the same thing.  Then there is the time aspect.  We get very little time to set up for a big show and with traffic and work schedules we usually are just finishing setting up the layout when the doors are opened.  Adding a signal system to the mix just isn't going to happen.  We also do a bunch of small shows [one day affairs] for vol. fire depts., police, churches, community day events or other charitable organizations.  Usually these involve minimal layouts with even shorter set up times.  A signal system is not going to be a priority for us but I would like to see us develop a turnout indicator for our yard modules.  It would save us from running to the other end of the yard to see if the turnout was positioned correctly.

[wm3798]

I would think that for N trak, the important thing would be the illusion of signalling.  As noted, not everyone will want to fool with it, so as with most facets of N trak, the lowest common denominator will win every time.  However, it wouldn't be hard to work in a simple circuit on one module that shows an approach board most of the time, drops to green when the train enters your module, then drops to red once the engine passes.  When the train clears the module, it would drop back to an approach.  Place the signal at the far end of the module, so it goes green when the train is 4' away.  I would think this could be done with some simple optical sensors and a timer.

Lee

[Denver Road Doug]

I think Bicknell is right on the money.  I think the detection probably needs to standardize on optical sensors between the track so that it can handle any control system.  Or maybe a current sensing system that would work with DC or DCC.

And a great point about bringing signalling to NTrak to bring down the overall cost of signals.  I am trying to add signalling to my layout and it's quite crazy what the commercial products cost.  And even if you just buy commercial targets and scratchbuild the rest it's not cheap.  I am working on a relatively cheap alternative that looks pretty good though...we'll see how it works out.

[John]

There was an article in RailModel Journal a while back for a modular signal system using CAT5 cables, and standard detectors ... I am sure a search in the MR database could find it for you ..

I know BANTRAK is starting to experiment

[John]

I think Bicknell is right on the money.  I think the detection probably needs to standardize on optical sensors between the track so that it can handle any control system.  Or maybe a current sensing system that would work with DC or DCC.

And a great point about bringing signalling to NTrak to bring down the overall cost of signals.  I am trying to add signalling to my layout and it's quite crazy what the commercial products cost.  And even if you just buy commercial targets and scratchbuild the rest it's not cheap.  I am working on a relatively cheap alternative that looks pretty good though...we'll see how it works out.

Traincat signal kits are pretty cheap ..

[TrainCat2]

Inexpensive ... Please!!

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Oh no, cheap, I've seen them go home from the bar with two different modelers on two sequential nights.

[Denver Road Doug]

I am working on a relatively cheap alternative that looks pretty good though...we'll see how it works out.

Traincat signal kits are pretty cheap ..

Yes, I have attempted to go that route but had some logistical issues. (partly of my own accord, but we're not going there)  As soon as the dealer gets them I'll have them on the way.

[John]

Inexpensive ... Please!!

Ok .. Inexpensive ..

[mmyers]

I know BANTRAK is starting to experiment

John,
We're almost there. Except for the small fire and explosion (cap blew up) at Bedford. Maybe smoke signals
We're combining our functioning DCC detection with the old Lindsay detection so the towers will work no matter what type of power is on the track. (The actual test worked until I shorted the input wires)

Seriously though. I don't think it can be done cheaply for NTRAK but it can be done.  Cheaper yields a maze of wires to connect and disconnect.
We had an idea a few years ago to build 1 foot signal modules.  Each would have its own signals, detection and loconet capable boards like SE8C. Place the modules in the layout wherever needed, connect them together with a loconet cable. Connect the whole works to a computer to run the signals. Neither board actually needs a Digitrax DCC system to function so it will even work on analog or other brand DCC systems. Individual modules or sets could also have signals, detection, boards if desired.
DC or DCC could be used because the signal module interface boards just have a detection input and it really wouldn't matter what type of power they were detecting. It may need one type detector for DC and another for DCC. The key is to have the detector provide the right signal to the logic board. The computer takes it from there. I estimated that the detection, SE8C, and signals would set us back at least three hundred dollars per module. We'd need a minimum of 6 modules. Position lights would be cool.

Martin