proud to be made in the US of A... ?

[bicknell]

Oh, that's rich.  Can the U.S economy really support 140,000,000 IT workers?  I don't think so.  Here's a simple fact for you: Guess who employs all the people you have such disdain for...  Your customers!  A healthy economy requires workers at all levels.  Someone has to flip burgers, someone has to change your oil, someone has to dry-clean your clothes, someone has to cook and deliver the food to your table when you want a relaxed dinner out.  Not everyone can acheive the divinity that is the IT professional.  The funny thing is, most of the laborers I know are relatively happy.  The IT people I know are sad, bitter, introverted, unhappy people who have trouble relating to other people who can actually challenge them instead of a non-thinking machine.

Being an IT guy, I'd kinda rather there were fewer IT guys (higher wages for me) and more people to flip burgers (lower burger cost, yum!).

That may be a bit selfish though.

[sparky]

Good on ya, Leo.  I'm in a happy place myself now.  But... I flipped burgers, washed cars, carried drywall, and changed oil to get here.  I'm a better man for all my experiences.  I think you know where I'm coming from... 

[asciibaron]

So tell me Steve, what are you going to do when you're in your 50's and the recent college grads are doing everything you do faster, better, and for half the pay?  Enjoy it while it lasts...

i'll be busy running my HO scale MILW road layout - what, you don't have an investment portfolio that will allow you to retire at 50?  what will you be doing at age 50?

-Steve

[asciibaron]

Sparky, i challenge you to live anywhere in the United States for $12/hr.  you have to live alone, that is the only requirement.

good luck.

-Steve

[sparky]

i'll be busy running my HO scale MILW road layout - what, you don't have an investment portfolio that will allow you to retire at 50?  what will you be doing at age 50?

-Steve

Of course I have a portfolio.  I could actually retire right now and live off my real estate investments.  But you know what, I actually enjoy my work.  That's just the way I was raised.

Stellar comeback, BTW...  :

[sparky]

Sparky, i challenge you to live anywhere in the United States for $12/hr.  you have to live alone, that is the only requirement.

good luck.

-Steve

Very few households can get by on one income anymore.  That's just a fact of life.  Just for fun, let's say Mom makes $18.00/hr and Dad makes $12.00/hr.  $30.00/hr X 2080 hrs/yr = $62,400/yr.  At that income level, with a mortgage deduction, your taxes are pretty low.  No, your not rich, but you can be happy.  I know, I did it for years, and I'm very happy.

[bicknell]

Sparky, i challenge you to live anywhere in the United States for $12/hr.  you have to live alone, that is the only requirement.

12 * 40 * 4 is 1920 a month.

There are brand new, 3 bed, 2 bath, 2 car garage houses up the road from me.  The sign says $89,900, $0 down, $840 a month.  My local ford dealer has an add in today's paper for a brand new mercury milan for $199/moth on a 24 month lease, $0 down.  Uncle Sam takes his, but I bet at that income with a nice mortgage deduction it's under 10%.

So, 1920 * .90 = 1720 to spend.  Subtract house and car, $689 a month for gas, food, utilities.

http://www.newsreview.com/reno/Content?oid=300708, food stamp diet, $5 per day, or $155/month.  We'll double that so you can eat well and call it $300.

So $389/month for gas and utilities.  It's going to be tight.

But that's with a brand new house and brand new car.  It's easy to get an apartment around here for $600, and a quality used car, financed properly could be more like $125/month.  Live close to work so your gas bill is low, go easy on the utilities (no cable, free over the air only, keep the AC warm and the heat cold, etc).

Totally possible.  I'd greatly prefer not to have to do it myself, but totally possible.  At least here.

[asciibaron]

12 * 40 * 4 is 1920 a month.

There are brand new, 3 bed, 2 bath, 2 car garage houses up the road from me.  The sign says $89,900, $0 down, $840 a month.  My local ford dealer has an add in today's paper for a brand new mercury milan for $199/moth on a 24 month lease, $0 down.  Uncle Sam takes his, but I bet at that income with a nice mortgage deduction it's under 10%.

So, 1920 * .90 = 1720 to spend.  Subtract house and car, $689 a month for gas, food, utilities.

http://www.newsreview.com/reno/Content?oid=300708, food stamp diet, $5 per day, or $155/month.  We'll double that so you can eat well and call it $300.

So $389/month for gas and utilities.  It's going to be tight.

But that's with a brand new house and brand new car.  It's easy to get an apartment around here for $600, and a quality used car, financed properly could be more like $125/month.  Live close to work so your gas bill is low, go easy on the utilities (no cable, free over the air only, keep the AC warm and the heat cold, etc).

Totally possible.  I'd greatly prefer not to have to do it myself, but totally possible.  At least here.

you are missing the insurance for the car, the insurance for the house, the real estate taxes, the PIM, the front foot assessment (if it's not well and septic).  no internet, no phone (forget long distance), what about clothes?  what about furniture?

the rental property will come with it's bag of goodness as well - $600 a month gets you into the best of neighborhoods i'm sure.  how many times is your car going to be broken into?  those broken windows add up.  then you have to drive to work, the bus takes 45 minutes and is always late.  you boss makes you work doubles and you don't mind cause you need the money so you can pay for the doctor's bill cause you had a viral infection.

$12/hr is not a living wage.

-Steve

[Chulvis]

Ok, we have gone waaaaaaayyyyyyy off topic here. This thread was about MTL products being made in the USA/China, remember?

If you guys want to debate the cost of living take it to the crew lounge and start a new thread.

[sparky]

Like it or not, Steve, people can and do survive on the type of budget Leo outlines.  That's "Middle America", And they're happy.

Can you say the same?

 My sincerest apologies to our host and moderators.  I realize this is a hobby forum, and not a political one.  I will continue to monitor this thread, but will not make any additional posts.  Back to the trains...

[bicknell]

Ok, we have gone waaaaaaayyyyyyy off topic here. This thread was about MTL products being made in the USA/China, remember?

Good point.

I don't care where they are made.

I care they are labeled properly, and I think the FTC guidelines are good.

[asciibaron]

I don't care where they are made.

but you don't care that a decent paying job is leaving this county????

Team Wal-mart can't loose.

-Steve

[Chulvis]

Enough