Operations - A Personal Struggle

[Iain]

Dave, I feel your pain.  I have the problem of the lines I want to model not having enough traffic to make them interesting.  Beaufort and Morehead would move a couple trains of tank cars each day and would have a train go into Beaufort once a week.  Switching tank cars around for other tank cars gets boring after a while.

So, backdate to the late 1920s and model Norfolk Southern.  Lots of small to medium steam, and most of it can be had in N scale.  The Railbuses would also be cool.  The trackage in New Bern would make a heck of a switching layout.  I also want to model up through the Dismal Swamp to get the DSRR, a narrow guage logger.  I can terminate in Norfolk, just enough to get the end of the Electric Division and maybe part of PRR and definitely N&W.  Basically if I plan correctly I can fit a good chunk of NS, as well as three major railroads and a quite a few minor ones.

However, I haven't the space or money for any of this.

PS Garth Rules!

[keystonecrossings]

Dave,

Did you know that the Milroy Branch was originally supposed to continue north over Seven Mountains to State College/Bellefonte?

If you want to model "what if", you could model the football extras headed to our alma mater by way of Lewistown.

...and the conquest of Seven Mountains would have been more of an exercise than the Allegheny crossing by way of the Horseshoe Curve. Helpers out of Lewistown!

[Dave V]

Hm...  I never thought about doing a "what if" Pennsy.

I could also complete the Lewisburg & Tyrone...  That would have served State College directly as well (and probably put the Bellefonte Central down for a dirt nap right quick).

Oh, heck, I don't know.  So many possibilities!

My boys and I ran trains tonight.  They were more than happy to pick trains from the staging yard to run.  My 3-year-old loves the H10sb and a mixed local freight (I give him the UT4 throttle to run - at least he can't re-program the decoders with it!).  My 5 year old ran an E8 with a passenger consist with the DT400 throttle (he's good with the buttons) and exchanged it for a pair of Geeps with a TOFC and boxcar consist.

It's a fun little layout to run stuff on.  However, I can't help but dream of some future big empty basement to fill!

[wm3798]

Do your kids take the caboose off so the train looks more real to them?  My son does that, and it drives me nuts.
Lee

[keystonecrossings]

Do your kids take the caboose off so the train looks more real to them?  My son does that, and it drives me nuts.
Lee

Ah, the difference a generation makes!   :'(

[BOK]

Hi fellas:

My name is Barry Karlberg, I have been a career railroader for over forty years, an N scale modeler for about the same time and have been lurking on this website for a year or so. I recognize a few a few posters from a couple of other sites and am happy to come on board.

Now to David's operation challenge:

Operations does not need to be complicated, difficult or expensive. I really like your door layout and it appears so do your boys. You have done a great job on the layout overall and the addition of the staging yard enhances your ability to move trains on and off the modeled portion.

If it were my layout I would add add a wye off one end of the layout and extend a short branch line down a wall 6-10+ feet with a few industrial spurs enroute to a round around track at the end of the line. Since you model the coal fields instead of another mine how about a short 2-3 car spur that serves
a small truck dump coal loader. Another spur, facing the opposite direction could serve a lumber yard or saw mill. Arriving at the end of the line there is a small 5-6 car runaround track(to get your locomotive around the cars you brought down the branch)  and the real purpose is to serve th biggest branch customer that of Pennslyvania Jams and Jellies which receives inbound corn syrup in tank cars, bottles by box car, fruit by reefer, and out bound product outbound in 40 and 50' RBLs (insulated boxcars). The food producer would have a couple of  spurs along side the mainline to handle both inbound and outbound business. Nothing fancy, keep it simple. Also if the branch was long enough it could have a small Peco turntable to turn up to a Mikado steamer or a Gas Electric. There would also be a water tank and a small depot.

Back at the wye off the mainline I would include an engine track for the town switcher and use the wye to run around cars from local switching on the main and turn helper engines. Both legs of the wye can be used to receive/ deliver cars to a mainline train for furtherance off the layout.

If you don't think you have room for a branch along a wall connecting to your door layout, think of a 6-12'' width shelf along a wall with the wye in the corner which can hook up to your layout or be a stand alone layout.

These are some rather inexpensive ways to add operations to an already beautiful operating layout. I can even provide an example of a simple integral reversing section of track for wyes or loops which does not need a separate connection to the power pack.

I know we did not touch on paper work but I can assure you it does not need to be fancy. A few years ago I operated a shortline railroad in Wisconsin with paper docments consisting of nothing more than a basic legal tablet. It dosen't have to be hard.

Oh, boy I fear I have written a bit too much my first time on this site.

These suggestions offered for your discussion and planning.

Barry

[SAH]

Steve,

Great points...

I'm inclined, however, to model portions of the PRR with which I am personally familiar

wouldn't want you to learn anything new or discover something way cool would we...

-Steve

Point taken Steve - However - I'm continually amazed at how the "familiar" becomes way cool once I start peeling back the layers of the onion with some research.  Stuff I never imagined happening did in fact happen.

the other Steve

[wm3798]

Gentlemen, we are in the presence of GENIUS!!
Barry, welcome aboard.  What you describe is something I've done, only instead of the branch line, I used the extra leg for a bigger staging yard, and the wye to access the layout in both directions.

Here's the wye track.

And the narrow shelf with the yard.

For the current layout, I expanded on the same idea...

Williamsport Junction allows traffic to enter and leave the layout in both directions, with access to both the eastbound and westbound tracks of the branch.



The branch enters the yard over Andy's dresser, then follows a narrow shelf around the room to North Junction, where there's the Penn Central interchange, and a couple of industries to switch.

From there, it crosses the aisle on the drop leaf bridge and into staging.


Instead of leading to staging, I like the idea of dead ending the line with a run around track.  That's how the Maryland and Delaware operates into my home town of Cambridge.

Lee

[Dave V]

Barry,

Thanks for the thoughts!

I do have a 3-track staging yard...  But as I move a lot due to the service (and the base housing at Offutt AFB I'm going to move to in August has very limited space), I have little chance at more than that for now.

[shark_jj]

Hi Dave, as someone who is modelling the Pennsy 4 track Middle Division I thought I might throw in my two cents worth on operation. 

You started the thread with two statements that you were a "roundy rounder" and a "railfan".  Both suggest a preference for mainline operation over switching or terminal operations.  In designing the Allegheny Division I was faced with the same dilemna you describe.  Within our operating group there are two fair sized N scale layouts.  The ASTX is about 50% larger than mine and based on the area around Thunder Bay on Lake Superior and is heavy into grain and intermodal with numerous grain elevators on the layout.  I designed and implemented a card order system for the almost 1000 cars that populate the layout.  Interestingly, when the engineers board goes up, and people start to bid on jobs, the mainline jobs would always be the first to go.  Switching jobs always seemed to fall to the one or two guys that were really interested in this type of operation. 

I also discovered that large layouts with numerous cars require that operators "pay attention" when they are switching car cards.  Each of the sessions seems to generate cars or cards that don't match up and time must be taken in between to match them up again.  I tried computerizing the operation with Ship It and while it was fun, it proved to be even more work and a time gobbler than the car card system.  The beauty of car cards is that if you have a car without a card, you can just remove it from the layout until the card is found, or conversely, a card without a car can be set aside until the car is found.  With computer programs the program assumes the car is where it is supposed to be and you have to tell it otherwise which, well lets just say it is problematic. 

All of this is background to the decision making process I was going through when designing the Allegheny Division and determining what type of Operation I wanted.  I wanted mainline operation when I felt like just running it alone or showing it off during Open Houses or visits.  I wanted operations that would make it a pleasure for the club group to operate.  These were the determining factors.  In order to generate the type of traffic the Middle Division saw, I needed staging, and so I have 25 staging tracks and could probably use more. 

In summary, operations is part of the Given and Druthers of layout design.  What is your personal interest.  How many operators will you require to run the layout.  What is their interest.  The answers to these questions will start to drive selection of prototype and type of operation. 

Building a medium to large layout is a major undertaking requiring years of commitment so you want to be sure that your interest level will not wane. 

[asciibaron]

Building a medium to large layout is a major undertaking requiring years of commitment so you want to be sure that your interest level will not wane. 

i have seen many people start to build massive layouts only to end up with basically a switching layout with a modest sized loop for "auto-pilot" operation.  having operated many large and medium sized layouts over the years, i find myself less inclined to want to operate the main line through freights unless the layout is single track with passing sidings and uses a dispatcher with signaling. 

-Steve

[Dave V]

Building a medium to large layout is a major undertaking requiring years of commitment so you want to be sure that your interest level will not wane. 

i have seen many people start to build massive layouts only to end up with basically a switching layout with a modest sized loop for "auto-pilot" operation.  having operated many large and medium sized layouts over the years, i find myself less inclined to want to operate the main line through freights unless the layout is single track with passing sidings and uses a dispatcher with signaling. 

-Steve

Right-on.  Too many basement mega-monsters never get past the plywood, track, and wire nest stage.

So it seems the "Holy Grail" is the layout that is large enough to give a sense of going somewhere, but small enough to be completed in reasonable time, with a traffic base and track design that is both manageable for just plain running when the owner feels like it, yet can support a half dozen or more operators at a real ops session.

Sounds like a tall order, yet there it is.  Sounds like Lee managed to find that happy spot.  Shark_jj seesm to be there too.

All about objectives.  I'm a lone wolf for now, but once I settle down (post-USAF) I don't want to be.  I do hope I can host ops sessions on whatever incarnation of the Pennsy ends up in my future basement.

[asciibaron]

So it seems the "Holy Grail" is the layout that is large enough to give a sense of going somewhere, but small enough to be completed in reasonable time, with a traffic base and track design that is both manageable for just plain running when the owner feels like it, yet can support a half dozen or more operators at a real ops session.

i am currently trying to iron out how traffic will be managed on my Panhandle layout - needing a dispatcher to throw turnouts becomes a headache when you are simply wanting to "play with trains" - to this i've come up with a system that uses towers to control local and locally controlled remote plants.  the towers will have 2 modes, local and dispatch - in local, the tower panel is active and all plant controls can be manipulated from the tower panel.  in dispatcher mode, the tower local panel is no longer active and plant manipulation can only occur at the dispatcher panel.  the tower mode switch will be on the dispatcher panel with a mode indicator lamp on the local tower panel. 

the implementation of that system will need to be worked out, but it seems like the best of both worlds in terms of being able to operate in a proto manner with just a few operators (a mini session) and with the full complement of operators (normal session).

the difficult part becomes staging the layout (not train storage staging) for operating - a mini session would mosty likely require that only trains with setouts/pickups run to allow the locals to perform their work.  the car card system will allow both types of sessions if the car card system is implemented with the dual session schema in mind when the cards are created.

getting all the backend in place is so much more work than the trackplan

-Steve

[Erik W]

Right-on.  Too many basement mega-monsters never get past the plywood, track, and wire nest stage.

So it seems the "Holy Grail" is the layout that is large enough to give a sense of going somewhere, but small enough to be completed in reasonable time, with a traffic base and track design that is both manageable for just plain running when the owner feels like it, yet can support a half dozen or more operators at a real ops session.

Dave,

It's interesting you brought that up.  When designing my layout, I had a fair amount of basement to fill.  I chose instead to build a 12' x 14' L shaped layout with 5' sidings and a 3 track hidden staging yard.  My #1 objective with the layout is to build a layout to a nearly finished level of completion within a reasonable amount of time.  Just over 4 years ago I wasn't in the hobby at all.  It was something I did 20 years prior as a kid/adolescent.  Everything I've done has been in the last 4 years.  I am a happy loan wolf modeler.  If there was anyone near by that wanted to help with construction, I'd politely decline.  I designed the layout for mainly single person operation with the ability to have two or three operators.  My dad's into model railroading so he's my main other operator, when he’s in town.  We've only operated once with three people.  I realize, through the process of constructing and operating this layout, that I'm mainly interested in mainline operations.  My next layout will feature a longer mainline run with fewer industries.

Erik

[Dave V]

You know, that Northern Division is still sounding good...

The main issue keeping me from doing it is, well...  Lots of others have done it too.

But that shouldn't keep me from doing it also.

Here's what I'd get if I did the Harrisburg to Northumberland with a spur from KASE tower representing the Shamokin branch:

1.  Coal traffic.  I could even put in a model of the Glen Burn Colliery.
2.  Passenger trains: 1/day each way.
3.  Through freights with intermodal.
4.  Locals
5.  Bridges over Susquehanna between Sunbury/Norry
6.  Lots of industry and switching at Sunbury
7.  Cool station at Sunbury
8.  Engine terminal and yard at Norry
9.  Reading interchanges at both ends
10.  Lykens valley branch at Millersburg
11.  Busy junction at KASE tower
12.  Selinsgrove Junction - connection w/ L&T branch

Rambling thoughts:  Walthers double-track truss bridges between Sunbury and Norry; Walthers engine terminal stuff at Norry; Sunbury station kitbash from modulars, Mountaineer Precision Products PRR Tower for KASE,

...yet I could probably design it such that I could run trains just by sequence if I were by myself or with my kids.

Steve, I know you're on board with this idea!