LDE plan for Southern Pacific suggestions

[TiVoPrince]

Town side
belongs on the backdrop.  OK, maybe mostly as flats or limited depth buildings.  Placing tracks in the 'back half' of the layout gives more room for the industries the railroad serves.  Compressing the actual track to allow only five 50' box cars to be spotted on the middle siding.  Shortening the related tracks should get you closer to fitting everything into the available space. 

I would be trying to more maintain the railroad relationship with the world rather than the actual arrangement.  The tracks leading to 'Fresno' would curve the 'wrong' way but if the street followed the railroads curve as in real life, the illusion is maintained.  A nice gap between the switching areas with cordoroy lettuce fields, culverts, drainage ditches, and the like to reinforce that valley feeling...

[SAH]

I would be trying to more maintain the railroad relationship with the world rather than the actual arrangement.  The tracks leading to 'Fresno' would curve the 'wrong' way but if the street followed the railroads curve as in real life, the illusion is maintained.  A nice gap between the switching areas with cordoroy lettuce fields, culverts, drainage ditches, and the like to reinforce that valley feeling...

Excellent point.  The reason Spencer works despite the 20 deg (as opposed to the prototypes 40 deg) crossing is that each element is where it should be relative to the other elements in the scene.

The biggest compromise I had to make was Spencer Forge, which is across the track from the ACY depot - In the aisle if done per prototype.  However, the track to the forge disappears between two long mill buildings and is not visible from the modeled crossing.  I flipped the switch position (relative to the prototype) so I could build the forge on the other side of the staging section.  The train will still enter the forge siding in the correct relationship to the actual scene.  I think it will work out just fine.

Good progress Chuck.  I sense you're having fun too.

Steve

[chuck geiger]

THANK YOU SAH, TIVO and CUYAMA for all the help - You are awesome.

[chuck geiger]

Boy this is getting confusing, I don't know where the branch I am modeling came from? Might be what's in bold.

The Biola Branch of the Southern Pacific Railroad (SP) was a 15 mile (24 km) freight branch line serving the raisin and agricultural area west of Fresno. The 15 mile (24 km) line ran from Fresno (Biola Junction) to Kerman, California where it connected with the Southern Pacific mainline that ran from Fresno - Tracy via Los Banos (known as the West Side Line).

The first 8.5 miles (13.7 km) of the Biola Branch between Biola Junction (Fresno) and Biola was completed by the Fresno Traction Company (which was owned by SP) on November 15, 1913. The Fresno Traction Company then immediately leased the branch to SP. One source says the entire branch was in operation as of 1920.[1] Another source says that the branch was constructed between 1929-1930 when the SP was doing major expansion of its rail yard in Fresno.[2]. On March 3, 1930 the Biola Branch was extended 7 miles (11 km) from Biola to Kerman where it connected with SP's Los Banos Subdivision.[3] On October 26, 1936, the branch was deeded to the SP. SP's purpose for having the Biola Branch extending from Kerman to the south end of SP's Fresno yard was so that West Side (Los Banos Subdivision) trains could enter the Fresno yard at the north (SP West) end of the yard without having to go through downtown Fresno.
On April 5, 1985, the Interstate Commerce Commission approved abandonment of the Biola Branch from MP 199.93 to MP 208.3.[4]

The right-of-way used to run along what is today known as Gettysburg Avenue to the west of Fresno. Partial remnants of a signal tower exist on the abandoned right-of-way just west of State Route 99. You can also see where the tracks used to cross Golden State Highway at Biola Junction, just north of Ashlan Avenue in Fresno. The line ran along Gettysburg Ave which is located between the major roads of Ashlan Ave and Shaw Ave.

[TiVoPrince]

I'm liking the plan
except for the viewblocks.  To me the valley lends itself more to 'dead spaces' in the corners.  Corners with minimal details that move eyes back to the walls, where there are details to focus on...

[chuck geiger]

I need to straighten out how the "WYE" will work and fit. Sanger would also be Southeast of Fresno. Might replace Sanger with Mendota to the west of Kerman. Making strides!

[TiVoPrince]

My take
on your concept.  Yup, I got washed out of work today and was inspired.



SP mainline in RED
Branchline in BLUE
Industries to follow your drawing with a "bonus" industry in the top left corner.  If you could invade the closet even more possibilites abound.  The behind the door cincept is evident in the top right corner.
RED box on plan is about 12"x12" if I scaled from your original plan accurately, constant radius curves are about 15" radius to make 60' cars look less silly.  SP trackage is mostly inaccurate but will allow you to work the trackage for maximum effect.  The trackage behind the door can be easily used for staging cars or even working the trackage as a SP turn-job appeariing from Bakersfield and working the branch before retuning.  The SP main should be well ballasted and visually contrast the "high iron" with the shabby maintenance and ballast profile of the branch line. How to disguise the Sanger to mainline connection is a quandry.  I would think a nice tight clump of eucalypus trees or some sort of citrus grove would do nicely.  For day to day operations the branch appears to end at Sanger so operationally treading on the mainline would be frowned upon.  But there is no reason not to run a lap or three between Fresno and Kerman also Kerman and Sanger would certainly add to the apparent "mileage" between towns.

I have no emotional investment here, so feel free to tear this apart if you care to...

[chuck geiger]

Tivo - what a great plan Thank you very much! Going to press with this manuscript. This be the keeper.

SP mainline in RED
Branchline in BLUE
Industries to follow your drawing with a "bonus" industry in the top left corner.  Already have an industry on the present layout benchwork thereIf you could invade the closet even more possibilites abound.Wife might not let that happen The behind the door cincept is evident in the top right corner. That is easy to do - smalle strip behind the door for two track main
RED box on plan is about 12"x12" if I scaled from your original plan accurately, Sure is - everything is one footconstant radius curves are about 15" radius to make 60' cars look less silly.  SP trackage is mostly inaccurate but will allow you to work the trackage for maximum effect. Pretty close to the WYE/main convergence in Fresno. The trackage behind the door can be easily used for staging cars or even working the trackage as a SP turn-job appeariing from Bakersfield and working the branch before retuning. Fresno Yard is a few miles to the north (door) The SP main should be well ballasted and visually contrast the "high iron" with the shabby maintenance and ballast profile of the branch line. The RailAmerica former SJVRR, former SP is real shabby, mostly multi-colored ballast made up from rocks and ashpalt.How to disguise the Sanger to mainline connection is a quandry.  I would think a nice tight clump of eucalypus trees or some sort of citrus grove   For day to day operations the branch appears to end at Sanger so operationally treading on the mainline would be frowned upon.  But there is no reason not to run a lap or three between Fresno and Kerman also Kerman and Sanger would certainly add to the apparent "mileage" between towns.

[TiVoPrince]

Don't know
what you have built so far.  I would certainly build it chin level to minimize duck in the duckunder.  Nobody here is getting any younger so minimizing the duck should help.  Standing on a step up (or a platform) during constructiomaintenence is a small price to pay for the realistic view while operating.  I mostly followed your plans/drawings but reordered things to better fit my experiences with that behind the door trick. 

I would strongly suggest using Atlas Code55 #10 turnouts on the SP main, #6 on the wye and passing/primary branch sidings with #4 on all dead end sidings.  This will give a clear visual clue to the purpose of the tracks.  My planning usually is fair but extreme accuracy is not guaranteed.  Creating a full scale plan on brown craft paper by tracing actual track components is HIGHLY reccomended to be certain I have not totally fluffed something up. 

Adding that extra industry to Kerman could be your opportunity to add some other interesting cars, maybe sugar beet loading, so you can also have dozens of beat to death and highly decrepit beet racks.  You will need a second track to get the traffic effect right.  A second track gets a loads/empties option or 'off season' when cars are just parked on the sidings waiting for the next beet rush...

Glad you like the plan, I think you will enjoy this plan for years...

[chuck geiger]

One section is up. 56 1/2 inches from carpet to foam. Simple benchwork, 1 1/2" foam on 1/2" 12 x 6 pine shelfing. They will be anchored by shelf brackets. I am done with L girder and open grid. A waste of lumber and time. The present layout was drawn out full-scale on brown paper. Great 1:1 transfer. I was think about keeping the Code 80 on the SP main and Code 55 on the branch. When I switched from HO to N, I guy traded me 15 peices of rolling stock for like 30 sections of Atlas Code 80 flex track and 15 #6 turnouts. I most likely need to employ those. Weathering and level changes can help with the appearance.

This where Fresno and SP main will go:

[TiVoPrince]

Burning
Code80 flextrack and turnouts you have on hand for the mains and primary branch trackage is a realistc way to go.  Leaving lighter rail to the sidings and furthest reaches of the branch would be common SP practice.  Adding a simple fascia and push/pull turnout controls keeps the budget in check while avoiding the hands on the layout that always damage the best details (and the hardest to repair) on the layout...

[bsoplinger]

This discussion has been informative of the thought behind designing a layout and I'll have to remember it when/if I ever get around to making my 'dream' layout.

But until I do, I'm just curious, how to you make a Y without Y switches? It seems you'd have to resort to small radius curves or do it all in flextrack to make anything happen, or am I missing an obvious thing here. Sort of like the 'think outside the box' test they give with the 3x3 of dots and asking to connect the dots with 1 line without lifting the pencil. You have to draw the connecting line outside the boundary of the dots to get it to work. I'd never ever have thought of that as an answer and I'm wondering if the Y thing is a similar sort of problem.

[3rdrail]

As far as the prototype goes, the AN's wye at Franklin (Apalachicola)  has two right and one left handed turnouts. And, 145 lb. rail on the main line leg (all three legs are curved).

[chuck geiger]

This is "wye" I joined THE RAILWIRE to learn and this thread and Tivo has helped me a great deal getting from a good looking layout to one based on operation that will look twice as good, based on reality. Who knew I would find some modelers that understand West coast roads amongst the great East coasrt modelers. It's like back in the day - is it DRE or Tupac, East coast or West coast.

[TiVoPrince]

But until I do, I'm just curious, how to you make a Y without Y switches?

I prefer
to think of a WYE simply as a track configuration rather than a specfic rigid shape.  Granted, standard turnouts will eat more space but since we are not trying to cram the maximum amount of track into a spaghetti bowl on this layout.  If railrads are forced into tight quarters costly specialty trackwork can be in order.  The expanse of the San Juoqin Valley offers no such restrictions...