LDE plan for Southern Pacific suggestions

[chuck geiger]

Modeling the Southern Pacific here in Fresno, what is the best track plan
to consider for an LDE in the area I model. There is nothing real topographical
that stands out. We are in a valley that is hundreds of miles long. There is
Tehachapi at one end, but every one models that. I am working with a 10'
by 10' room and trying to avoid a duckunder. To run a shelf around the room
based on local scenes, it's real agricultural and flat. I do assume a true LDE
doesn't have to have contour, but interchanges and industrial areas? Also, LDE's
are based on real places fit to scale, but how to you fit operations and a plan
for operations into it? ???


The SP and ATSF ran through here (now UP and BNSF), what about the branches
to other towns i.e the map? Just looking for some awesome input.

[SAH]

Chuck,

Don’t get hung up on the “to LDE or not to LDE” question.  The trick IMO is to find a manageable prototype location that fits comfortably in your space AND has some operating potential so it doesn’t get boring over time.  That said, what type of prototype scenes or operation interest you:  Industrial trackage and switching?  Mainline running and scheduled operations?  Do you like to build structures?  Interchanges are always good.  Mine is set out in farm country at little Spencer O, but big city interchanges can work in N scale in the size you have available.  How about the point where a branch leaves the main?  Maybe a single industry.  I’m sure the great state of Kahleeforneeya has examples of all of it and more.

The biggest attraction to sticking with a LDE sized layout comes from the time spent learning about what went on there, meeting the people who made it happen and recreating it in miniature.  Since I started Spencer I’ve had more fun with the hobby than at any other time.  Focus has kept my equipment purchases under control too.  (So just why DID I order those Shoreline GP7s.   :  )

Steve

[chuck geiger]

Thanks Steve, I just re-read your article in TRACK PLANNING to help me focus on this. I am going to build the benchwork, then spent sometime taking pictures and printing Google maps. I did that for this layout and drifted. I began to try to cram too much into one space. I wanted to create an N scale layout that was open and roomy feeling, I ended up trying in a 3x11' space to recreate planet Earth. Here's a sample plan:




I have another one I am working on, which one do you guys like?

[TiVoPrince]

I would
consider the SP/UP and ATSF/BNSF mains relationships.  Adding a single loop of track to simulate ATSF/BNSF main and traffic.  Contrasting the long SP 'drags' next to the ATSF 'sprinters' makes quite a layout.  Moving the yard below layout grade to represent Sacaremento/Los Angeles provides more operatoinally interesting scenes to be modeled and train storage moved to a lower level.  Putting another town (like Oakdale) where the mains basically split a city block, such a town would add immensely to the valley feel...

[CoalPorter]

What is a LDE ?

I know when you get between Fresno and Bakersfield, the landscape
is so barren you can see the curvature of the earth.

[SAH]

The top plan with the viewblock has some advantages visually.  When someone walks into the room the entire layout is not visible immediately.  A visitor must walk around some to see the whole thing.  The layout appears larger as a result.  The down side is a lot of curves and you wind up with some cramped aisles.  Might be OK for a narrow gauge or branch line feel but might not look right for a modern mainline.  OTOH TiVo's thoughts on a lower staging level is worth considering.  The turn back blob offers the opportunity to use a helix to get to a lower level.  The long ATSF / SP freights would not be visible snaking around the bends.  A potential downside - A more complex construction project.

The true shelf plan has plenty of people space in the center.  Are you a big guy?  If so that might be an advantage.

One thing I noticed is the reference to multiple town names.  I sense you haven't shaken the "let's cram as much as we can into the space" mind set.  It's hard to shake it off, that's for sure. 

Here's the entire Spencer O layout plan.  One small town. That's it.  Enough operation interest to keep it from getting boring too quickly.  Interesting structures to build.  Recognizable to someone who knows the area.  More or less the definition of a LDE (Layout Design Element) to answer CoalPorters Q.



Steve

[chuck geiger]

Thanks for the pointers Steve, I am reading the Koester book on LDE's "building blocks" and your point on less is more is well-taken. The room has to function as a spare room too. Foldout bed that is under the layout. Shelf w/ veiw blocks and less "cram" seems to be the best.

[cuyama]

One suggestion I often make to people is to choose their locations so as to make the model more achievable in less space. In this case, Fresno is a pretty significant location on the SP (depending on the era) and any version of it in a spare-room-sized space might be frustrating to some. (Or may not, seems to me that each of us has a different tolerance/interest level when it comes to this).

On the other hand, a different location might offer many of the same elements but in a more achievable scope. I know you've already done a lot on the current layout with a Fresno focus, but another location (one of the branches like Biola or Friant, for example) might allow a more realistic replication of prototype elements just because the scope of the real-life facilities is more in keeping with the available space.

But the whole discussion really comes down to personal preferences. Some of us can can happily accept a smaller model yard as "Fresno", others find it more satisfying to choose a prototype area to model that may be represented closer to its real-life scope with fewer tracks. If you haven't built a version yet for your current layout, Fresno's very distinctive SP station would be a great addition and a way to "anchor" the yard in place as Fresno.

I didn't notice if there is any staging in the current sketches, that might also be something to consider. Even a few tracks behind a backdrop might be a nice addition.

Byron
Model RR Blog
http://mrsvc.blogspot.com/

[chuck geiger]

Byron thanks for the ideas, I am starting to rexamine that. I am going to model the WEST SIDE LINE. Fresno to Kerman . The Fresno to Kerman is 15 miles and is currently a RAILAMERICA short line. It was previously the SJVRR and SP before the merger. Actually I think SP gave it up before the merger. Thanks to Virtual Earth, I have some great pictures and I am going out there today to take some photos. Steve thanks for the input on this as well. I feel confident about where this project is going. I am going to start the benchwork around the room, keeping the current layout in place until I need to start attacking it for track and switches. UPDATE - Took the camera and went out on my lunch break. Here's the map.

[cuyama]

I am going to model the WEST SIDE LINE. Fresno to Kerman . The Fresno to Kerman is 15 miles and is currently a RAILAMERICA short line.

Chuck,

Sounds like a very achievable goal in your space. One additional thing I would suggest is to think about not having the tracks on each wall parallel the wall itself. And you can let the edge of the benchwork vary as well. I like to mix it up a little ... sometimes I'll have the track parallel a wall with a parallel fascia where I want to emphasize that the real railroad is parallel to a road or some other feature in the real world, then let it vary from parallel in a another area where the real railroad is cutting or curving across the road grid, for example. This deviation from parallel doesn't need to be much, just enough to suggest to the eye that there's something different happening from one wall to another.

Byron

[TiVoPrince]

Assuming
that ihis drawing is 90* anti-clockwise from the above drawings.  Running the tail of the siding behind the door (into the 'dead space') seems very prudent allowing the wall furthest from the door to become a 'scenery only' space with Fresno industries along to top wall and the interchange on the right.  Leaving a 'siding' at Kerman connectable to the interchange tracks for temporary loop running for loco break in or display running.  Without the 'bridge' the layout is a simple point to point affair from interchange to Kerman.  Creating some way to get different cuts of cars from the interchange would make operations far more interesting.  A single detailed GP9E or SD7R with all those excellent light effects and a nice brass C-50-x caboose would be all that was necessary for this layout, other than appropriate cars for your industries.  I envy you if you can show the restraint to limit yourself to only what you 'need' at the SP buffet...

[chuck geiger]

THANKS for all the help and the suggestions. My current layout will remain on one side of the room while the first 1'x8' section goes up on the opposite wall. Here's what really exsists in Kerman today:



The loop sidings serve inactive agri-products. The only real customer is HELENA CHEMICAL CO. They take tank cars on a single spur in an enclosed loading area. There is a three track yard in Kerman. I made a mistake and only had two on the plan.

Some shots of the area:

Helena Chemical Company:

Three tracks in Kerman:

Where siding begins from single track main outside of Kerman:


A couple of questions:

1.) How do I find out what industries were served in the year being modeled which wold be 1985? This was SP then before SJVRR.
2.) It seems today, the tracks are stroage tracks, there are no industries serving those box cars. Should I combine the present with the past and goe for what I know and roll back the clock?

Again thanks for the continued input.

[cuyama]

1.) How do I find out what industries were served in the year being modeled which wold be 1985? This was SP then before SJVRR.

If you can find a copy of the SPINS (Southern Pacific Industrial Numbering System) industry/track map book for the area, it will be very helpful. Dealers in railroad paper sell these, or there may be copy with a museum or historical society. These sometimes carried the names and locations of industries even after they stopped being rail-served, so they're not always reliable for era-related questions, but it's an excellent place to start.

2.) It seems today, the tracks are stroage tracks, there are no industries serving those box cars. Should I combine the present with the past and goe for what I know and roll back the clock?

I find it acceptable (for myself) to mix eras a bit to add operating interest. Others may find that an unreasonable compromise with reality. If I am working on a project for someone else, I always discuss the pros and cons and let them make the final decision.

Byron

[TiVoPrince]

In the end
the trackwork you build must support long term opeational interest.  Choosing a date is a valid start.  An examination of industries/cars available is a logical next step.  Your discovery of a chemical comany is a fine start.  Asking youself if the appropriate cars are available or if a stand-in you find acceptable is in your collection or can be obtained.  If, for instance you had a lumberyard the 'holy grail' PC&F lumber cars are not available but excellent cars are available from Fox Valley or less detailed MDC/Athearn cars if you don't require extreme detail levels.  Borrowing industries from nearby towns or branches to condense a satisfying layout experience may not be acceptable to everyone.  Accuracy to a fault for a museum is a lofty goal, but we don't operate museums in general...

[chuck geiger]

Here's the starting point. Thanks for all the help, please keep it coming. I don't think I can model all of the Kerman area. Most of the town side will have to go on the backdrop and only a partial of the chemical company. If I go with this section as Kerman. I could move Kerman to the other side of the room and pick up several more feet. ???