On the other hand... $50 for a DPM built up?

[Ed Kapuscinski]

This thread really got me thinking, re-reading Mike and Lee's posts above.

What is the "work product" of modeling?

Is it the entire layout? What about the one passenger train, or the individual car, or the truck it rides on, or the perfectly scale wheel?

I  think what we're seeing here, very articulately presented, is that  different modelers model in different scopes.

Lee's a layout builder. He builds his models to support his layout. I know this because I've known him for a while now, and talk with him at length.

I'm pretty sure Mike's more of a "model" modeler. He builds individual models for their own existence.

Me, I think I'm more of a Lee and less of a Mike. But I'm closer to Lee. I think.

[Mark5]

Another way of saying that is I am building a model of a railroad. The models themselves are the supporting cast. I want the models to be "good enough" so as to not distract from the "illusion" of a working railroad.

For others the model railroad is secondary to the individual models (if the model railroad exists at all).

[3rdrail]

Ed, evidently you've forgotten some of the photos of Mike Skibbe's work on NTrak modules. For Midwestern scenes, I've never seen anyone do a finer job, and I spent a year deeply involved in a midwestern rail line between Portland, IN and Calumet City, IL.

[Sokramiketes]

Ed, evidently you've forgotten some of the photos of Mike Skibbe's work on NTrak modules. For Midwestern scenes, I've never seen anyone do a finer job, and I spent a year deeply involved in a midwestern rail line between Portland, IN and Calumet City, IL.

Thanks, Gregg.  That means a lot.

I don't know that I'm a "model" modeler, to the extent of others like Tom Mann, Mellow Mike, or Mark Jirousek.  The latter two have deep roots in well done freight and passenger cars respectively, and ignore other aspects of model railroading entirely.  I include Tom in the list because everyone gives him a hard time for not building a layout.

I've tend to post photos of such a random collection of models, that one might get the same idea about me.  But, I've done the home layout thing with the CGW layout.  It still exists in my dad's basement, and gets operated a couple times a year as part of a Friday Night round-robin group of operators... but not much has been accomplished on it in the past couple years.  I think my skills have improved enough that the "old" modeling on the layout bugs me.  But, it works and it operates, and it's certainly big picture.

I do like to build models. I've got several passenger trains that don't have a 'big picture' home yet.  So, they exist solely as models for models sake.  Sometimes they ply the rails of the CGW, and other times they make an appearance on the modular layout. 

Which brings me to the modules that Gregg mentioned.  Although not N-trak, a couple of local friends have been getting together and builidng Midwestern modules that we display at a few shows a year.  We just set up this weekend at the Southland MRR show in Oak Lawn, IL.  Bill Denton has 6 modules that give him the town of New Lisbon, WI and a pair of end loops, and I've got 5 modules of my own so far that depict Russell, IL, Wausau, WI, and the scenic transition module with the infamous corn on it.  Vince Kotnik joined us thtis weekend with a curve module of the C&NW in Sheboygan Falls with a masterful scratchbuilt brass through girder bridge.  The guys in the group are of the same mindset, where we re-do things until they look right, and put the same amount of effort into the scenery as the trains as the track as the operational quality, etc.

I don't feel that it's a single model detail level versus big picture detail level for us.  Maybe the old "quality over quantity" adage applies.  There are plenty of modelers out there that can maintain a high level of detail throughout an entire home layout.  Bill Darnaby comes to mind.  He's 90% focused on operations, yet still takes the time to put in lever bars from his interlocking tower to the switches.  The Reid Brothers have a masterful home layout and haven't had to skimp just because there was a whole basement to fill.  There are plenty of others.

I understand that detailing isn't fun for everyone, and that people choose different thresh holds for "good enough".  I don't know that those thresh holds are dependant on amount of space to be filled. 

[wm3798]

I smell a Truth About Model Trains blog in the wind...

Perhaps Mike's comment about the "old modeling" is the key.  We're all on a journey, and we're all at different way-stops, and perhaps all headed to different destinations.  I knew a long time ago that I wanted a big, room filling layout.  I also knew that in so doing, there would be a number of compromises.  No super long trains like N trak offers, and a budget limited by raising a large family in an old house. etc.

But I also have placed obstacles in front of myself over the years... it took me a long time to finally make the leap to install Micro Trains couplers... (1988) and I hemmed and hawed over DCC for about 6 years before finally buying a system and installing it.  And hardwiring decoders?  John could fill you in on some of my earlier hatchet jobs before I finally waded into the deep end there.

Detailing individual models falls into the same category.  Tom Mann lowered a freight car, and I rolled my eyes.  Then I sat there watching my trains run around the layout, and I just started getting angry at how lousy the ride height looked.  I've done a few cars, and most of my caboose fleet, but then the A-D-D kicked in and I moved onto fussing over the appearance of the track ballast.  Of course, digital photography makes us see things that we never could before, giving rise to a whole new debate about the level of detailing we should expect from ourselves.

My latest obsession has been developing a more detailed operating schematic for my layout, after years of rolling my eyes at the likes of Koester, Darnaby and Sassi.

To bring it all full circle, going back to the pre-assembled, factory detailed, factory weathered structures...  In a few years, will you look at that and decide it's no longer up to your standard?  Will you pull it apart to rework it because you're not satisfied with someone else's work?  Will that process make you wonder if you made a good investment at the time, even though you're now putting your own time and skills to work on it (something you could have done earlier for a fraction of the price?) 

I built my entire paper mill project with about $50 worth of bargain bin kits (Thanks again, Ed! ;D) and some DPM modular parts.  There's one built up (a Walthers back shop building that I re-worked into a digester/pulp processor... bought on Ebay at a fraction of the retail price) and I wish I could have gotten it as a kit instead.  It still needs to be painted, but I'm not in a mindset to mask off all the pre-assembled windows etc. So it sits there festering in my subconscious.

I'm very much after bang for the buck, and the bang for me includes the creative pursuit of building, decorating and detailing for myself.  That's probably the fundamental reason I question plunking down $50 for something that I really have nothing to do with.

Lee

[DKS]

I smell a Truth About Model Trains blog in the wind...

Funny you should say that.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

How funny is that?

http://ttamt.blogspot.com/

(if you like it, click the ads, if you hate it, click the ads )

[DKS]

How funny is that?

http://ttamt.blogspot.com/

That was quick! I was about to ask what a model railroading parallel to "scope creep" (a term with which I'm sure you're intimate, Ed) might look like...

[Ed Kapuscinski]

that term sends shivers up my spine.

Remind me to tell you about the National Aquarium some time...

[Train Nutz]

You know what Lee,
    Most of us prefer to build these type of kits and add our own personalities to them. Their's nothing like building a kit, modifying it, painting it & adding details to make it as differently then the way someone else would have done to it & make it uniquely different in it's own way. Now we have a new influx of new modeler's coming into the hobby who don't want to sit down and assemble anything. They want everything ready to run including building kits. It is nutz ( no pun intended on me) to pay $50.00 dollars for a built up kit that originally cost around 8 to 9 dollars in kit form. So it looks like a lot of the manufacturer's of building kits are jumping on the band wagon to fit the needs of the newer modeler. Now things can start looking pretty boring as new layouts being built by the new modeler's will all start looking the same as they'll be buying these pre built kits and lack personality on their own individual layouts.
So much for creativity.....
Train Nutzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[DKS]

Most of us prefer to build these type of kits and add our own personalities to them. Their's nothing like building a kit, modifying it, painting it & adding details to make it as differently then the way someone else would have done to it & make it uniquely different in it's own way. Now we have a new influx of new modeler's coming into the hobby who don't want to sit down and assemble anything. They want everything ready to run including building kits. It is nutz ( no pun intended on me) to pay $50.00 dollars for a built up kit that originally cost around 8 to 9 dollars in kit form. So it looks like a lot of the manufacturer's of building kits are jumping on the band wagon to fit the needs of the newer modeler. Now things can start looking pretty boring as new layouts being built by the new modeler's will all start looking the same as they'll be buying these pre built kits and lack personality on their own individual layouts.

(Cue a Truth About Model Trains post...) It's probably true that the manufactuers are feeding off of the "instant gratification" crowd. But I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. It stimulates the market; a little more profit for their coffers means more goodies for us kitbashers. I also like to think that after a while the built-up modelers may start taking the hobby more seriously. Then there are people who would ordinarily bash or scratch stuff but are in a serious time-crunch and want to get up and running more quicky. So I don't think we should use such a broad brush to paint them all as uncreative, and I also think we should welcome the product lines as another means to keep the hobby market humming.

[Skip]

To hitchhike on Dave's comment, I think if we can get the "instant gratification crowd" building a layout, with this type of structure, it means more "modelers" and more people looking for locomotives and rolling stock that are not currently being produced.  I think any way we can get more people into the hobby can't be bad.

BTW I saw these structures at a train show this past weekend, and they do look pretty good, and they were selling.  I suspect that they will soon produce the rest of the HO buildup line in N scale.

[atsf_arizona]

I think this is a great thread, with many good comments and thoughts.

My 2 cents worth:

- The hobby is, of course, continually evolving.  I think that many of the
Prototype Modelers meets consist of a generally younger crowd than the
traditional NMRA... that the stellar models the Prototype Modelers are generally
based on today's quality RTR models and then kitbashed from there
(as opposed to being built piece by piece out of strip styrene, wire,
and turn-your-own-wheels-on-your-own-lathe NMRA National Contest
models....

- Says to me that just like the advent of computers, internet, iPhones, TiVo,
chat software, forum software, Wii and Nintendo, etc etc etc .....

- These all are indicators at the bigger picture that our hobby is evolving as
well.   As long as the quality and appearance of the $50 built-ups
prove to be commercially successful, then that is an indicator
they are meeting something the market is willing to buy....

I am a huge proponent and admire-er of those who are able to
model from kits.   More power to you.  At the same time,
extremely time-challenged guys like myself
who can barely squeeze in some early morning modeling before starting
a long work + family day.... I am glad I have these choices available
to me now.   If I were to purchase the built-up, it would not be
for lack of wanting to improve my skills.... it would be because
my life choices don't give me the time availabiity to improve my
skills to this level, and it's more expedient to purchase and then just
do light fast weathering.

Good thread!

[RS-27]

I (reluctantly) agree that $50 built-ups are a good sign. (that there are those who will spend that much on a fist size of scenery)

I won't buy them, though:

A: I'm cheap (and retired).

B: I can do better.

Bob in IDaho, who wishes that I had that type of customer when I had my shop.

[nscalesteve]

...I would not build this kit for someone else for only $50 !   ;D ;D