Tender parts identification...

[Sumner]

I'm modeling (designing) a tender to go with my rotary snowplow.  The U.P. plow had a tender behind it that was originally behind a U.P. 2-8-8-2 they had acquired from N&W (Y-3).  It had been converted to oil fire the plow with an oil fuel tank added inside the tender where the coal had been.

Not sure what the two items are in the image above that the arrows are pointed at.  I'd assume one must of been a rear headlight?  Is the larger one somehow used with the water tank there or is it a light?

I can find models of the the 2-8-8-2 with the tender but only one shows this detail. 



On others it is not modeled (above) so not sure if the detail is right or wrong on either model and can't find actual pictures of the real tender that show these views.

Anyone know for sure?

Sumner

[rodsup9000]

 Paging @robert3985
 He should know what that is

[robert3985]

@Sumner - First, the object in question is a backup light.  Here's a photo of an HO brass model that shows it very well...

Photo (1) - N&W Mallet 2-8-8-2 Y-3 Tender Light in brass:


Photo (2) - N&W Mallet 2-8-8-2 Y-6 Tender Light painted:


Using these photos as a reference, it's pretty plain that this is a backup light.

HOWEVER, in the one photo I found of a UP-ized N&W Y-3 2-8-8-2 Mallet, this backup light isn't visible on the engineer's side of the engine.

Photo (3) - UP-ized ex N&W Y-3 2-8-8-2 Mallet showing that the off-center backup light isn't there in this photo:


Maybe the light just isn't visible, but it's still there???  Hmmm...however, when I found a photo of an HO model of the N&W engine in nearly the same pose, the light is clearly visible.

Photo (4) - HO N&W 2-8-8-2 Mallet with visible tender backup light:


Since the UP purchase five N&W Y-3 2-8-8-2's, did all of them have this type of backup light?  I found a brass model of a N&W Y-3 with a different tender backup light.

Photo (5) - HO N&W 2-8-8-2 Y-3 Mallet with low, recessed tender backup light:


Sooo, the one prototype photo I have shows no top-mounted tender backup light on the UP-ized Y-3.  Hmmm...does this mean that UP removed the light when the engine was UP-ized, or does it have the recessed tender backup light???

In a possible answer to this question, I found another photo of an HO model of this engine after being UP-ized.  If this model is correct, I am going to vote that UP removed the light and the Y-3's tender wasn't re-equipped with a UP-style backup light.  But, this is only a semi-educated guess because another possibility might be that different tenders for these engines had different backup lights...some recessed and some top-mounted.  This might be the case because the original engine numbers for the five purchased engines are not consecutive. But, who knows???...since there are models of these engines after being UP-ized with both recessed and no backup light.

Photo (6) - HO UP-ized Ex N&W Y-3 Tender w/o a Backup Light:


To find out for sure, I would say that a photo of the rear of the tender on one of the UP-ized Y-3's, OR a photo of the rear of one of these tenders attached to a UP Rotary Snowplow would answer the question.

I checked on the tender behind the rotary snowplow located at the Ogden Union Station and it is definitely a UP tender taken from a UP TTT, so that isn't a help.

Another possibility would be to look for photos of the particular N&W engines that were sold to UP.  Their N&W numbers were: 2013, 2020, 2025, 2030 and 2041.  They became UP numbers 3670-3674.

Good luck!

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[Sumner]

Thanks Robert, the tender in question came from UP 3762 according to Utah Rails.  All of the model RR models I've seen made of the 3762 don't show the high mounted light.  They seem to show the lower light on the back of the ones I've been able to find.  Guess that is what I'll use also.

Sumner

[Mark5]

Interesting. Maybe N&W hadn't gotten around to adding a backup light to one of the tenders, or maybe they shipped one of the Y-3s to UP with one of the unmodified 16000 gallon tenders that N&W had as spares.

Diagram of the backup light application:
https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=48846

Nice write-up on UP's "war babies": https://utahrails.net/up/war-babies.html

Mark

[Sumner]

The tender also has a rear red light.  I can see the rear lights being used when it was a tender behind a loco but would either of the lights ever been on when it was behind the rotary snow plow since there would always be an engine behind it when it is moving?

I'll put the light on the model but don't want to use a decoder function for it if it was never lit behind the plow.

Sumner

[Mark5]

You're probably right - the light on the tender in plow use was likely just an artifact.

[Slim Rail Mike]

Take with a grain of salt
 The larger object to my uninformed mind looks like a vent. I would think in plowing there would be sudden stops thus surging fluids in the tank, may be requiring such a vent.

[Sumner]

Finishing up the tender design and had a question....



Thanks for any help,

Sumner

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Ha! I thought this was going to be a thread about finding the little man in the boat.

[Maletrain]

Just a guess: maybe those hooks were there to hold a pole for moving cars that had been uncoupled.  That tender also has poling pockets on its frame.

[Sumner]

... That tender also has poling pockets on its frame.

Are those the round pockets above where the chains to the trucks attach?

Sumner

[peteski]

Poling pockets are the round dimples or cups on the rear beam.

[Lemosteam]

The chains are there so that if the tender derails, the trucks, although resting under the bolster and its trunnion pin, are there to prevent the truck from becoming a projectile in an accident. I agree that the hooks are likely for a push pole, which would be a nice detail addition if you were to print the pole and hooks separately to be glued onto the tender, but I doubt they would have a pole for the snow machine use.

[squirrelhunter]

I don't have my copy anymore, but William Kratville's book the War Emgines about the former C&O and N&W articulated locomotives UP bought near the end of World War 2 has a bunch of photos of the locos after UP got them set up to theor preferences before putting them into service, including the tenders.