Test printing for Keystone Details restart

[bbussey]

@bbussey - I went to the Bowser site looking for N-scale Bettendorf T-section leaf-spring/friction-bearing caboose trucks for sale, and none are offered.  The closest (although not very close) are their PRR Caboose Trucks.  None of the four trucks have leaf springs, so would be unsuitable for use on the majority of North American cabooses.

I then went to the Bachmann site, also looking for N-scale Bettendorf T-section leaf-spring/friction-bearing caboose trucks for sale, and no trucks whatsoever are offered in N-scale, even though on their newer higher-end N-scale "Northeast Steel" cabooses, they're equipped with a type of (maybe) Andrews leaf-spring/friction-bearing caboose trucks...but, they're not offered for sale separately...even though they are for sale in HO.  However, they look quite different from the two types of Andrews caboose trucks I'm familiar with...the L-Section and the U-section caboose trucks.

Bowser has them, because I bought a bulk amount for the upcoming ESM Lackawanna caboose kit.  Bachmann is indeed using them, because I approached them first to purchase the trucks and they redirected me to Bowser.  Whether or not they are available at retail is another matter.  But Bowser certainly has them.

[garethashenden]

Bowser has them, because I bought a bulk amount for the upcoming ESM Lackawanna caboose kit.  Bachmann is indeed using them, because I approached them first to purchase the trucks and they redirected me to Bowser.  Whether or not they are available at retail is another matter.  But Bowser certainly has them.

I would think that being available at retail is the whole point. The reason so many of us rely on Micro-Trains trucks is that they are readily available. No need to call someone or know who has a secret stash somewhere.

[robert3985]

I second my colleage's rather lengthy motion, and relinquish my time if he needs more.   

Mike @Sokramiketes - HAha!    Thank yew!  Thank yew very much!  Sometimes ya gotta say what needs to be said...and the lack of caboose trucks in N-scale has been a problem for as long as I can remember...and I'll be hitting 76 at the end of this month!  Who knows if I'd ever get the opportunity to spout off again! 

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[jdcolombo]

On a somewhat broader note, what John L. has demonstrated is that it is now realistic to have all sorts of stuff available in N scale that wasn't available before, or if available via 3D printing, simply wasn't up to snuff quality-wise.  Caboose trucks are only one item; you can imagine tons of other detail parts (some of which are already being produced by John); signal heads and bridges; and . . . buildings.  Interlocking towers, lineside shacks, industrial buildings of all types, etc.  I keep thinking how much easier it would have been to construct the National Carbon South Works in Fostoria OH on my layout if all the structures there could simply have been printed, as opposed to scratch built with odd pieces of numerous kits, styrene structural shapes, brick siding of various sorts; "windows" printed on clear acetate by a laser printer; etc.  Maybe the design work would have eaten up some of the time savings of printing over scratch building, but I suspect printing would still be faster in the end.

Here are a couple of photos of my National Carbon scene; all of you that actually understand 3D printing can comment on whether printing the buildings for this scene would have been easier and faster than scratch building them . . .

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(And here's an aerial view of the actual South Works for anyone interested in seeing how close I came in modeling this scene):

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John C.

[Mark5]

I actually enjoy aspects of scratch-building and kit-bashing, and I kinda feel that if I could just 3D print everything - it would reduce my enjoyment.

That said, I'm not against 3rd printing at all (I have some 3D print projects in mind).

I will probably utilize some Keystone prints in my upcoming layout. 

Mark

[Sumner]

Here are a couple of photos of my National Carbon scene; all of you that actually understand 3D printing can comment on whether printing the buildings for this scene would have been easier and faster than scratch building them . . .
John C.

Great work John.

If the question on time was 'just printing' it would be yes probably way less time but still some of those would of been hours long prints.  Also, for sure with most resin printers, and even filament printers you would of still had to piece them together since the build volume of the printer probably wouldn't of printed anything there in one print.  My ....

.... coal mine complex above is also an example of that as it is many prints.  The time of course is in the CAD work.  Not sure how much I have in the coal mine complex but it was over days, not full days, but still I'd guess I have over 50-70 hours in it.  Some of the prints that still need to be attached aren't in the video.

I like the CAD work so go that route but can see others for sure liking the scratch built approach also.  I don't have the coal mine complex up on thingiverse but do have a number of other buildings so for those that download those and print them they will have far less time than scrach building something similar.

Sumner

[jdcolombo]

Yeah, now that I think more about it, the design time involved in doing a project like this might have ended up making it just as time-consuming.  I did have a lot of help in putting this scene together - a former member of our local NTrak club who now lives in Bellinham, WA actually did the "design work" for this scene, and sent me "kits" to assemble and fit on the layout.  He spent a lot of time on this, but maybe in the end less than what one would have spent doing the CAD work to 3D print it.

But I still think the day is coming, sooner rather than later, when a lot of things like rolling stock, engine shells, etc. will be 3D printed on demand by sellers.  I can imagine Atlas with a stock of GP-9 mechanisms, and all the shells are 3D printed (with road-specific details) and painted/lettered on demand when an order comes in.  No more pining for the day when your favorite road makes it in the manufacturing cycle.

John C. 

[John]

The current state of 3-D on a resin printer I think is best suited for smaller projects and detail parts. I also believe smaller buildings are within the realm, but it’s almost faster in a lot of cases to get some evergreen styrene and knock out things like walls the old-fashioned way.

Back when I was designing the York coal Tower for Ed‘s layout I think I spent the better part of a month doing the CAD work and then multiple prints that took hours to get the proportions that I wanted.

That said I believe 3-D printing structures is still possible, but I think a hybrid approach is probably more realistic, especially for larger structures. Things like doors, windows stairs, all the kit that goes on the roofs, etc., lends itself to 3-D printing.

I haven’t seen what Bob Knight is up to lately but I printed over 100 of the windows for his structures over one weekend. If he had to buy those from the established sources, it would’ve cost him quite a bit of money I think that’s really where the best utility is.

That’s just my humble opinion and I admire some of the things that our membership here has produced, especially the lumber mill and other structures that we see.

[Sumner]

............Back when I was designing the York coal Tower for Ed‘s layout I think I spent the better part of a month doing the CAD work and then multiple prints that took hours to get the proportions that I wanted..................

It took three design/printing attempts of the sawmill building before I was happy with it.  I'm on the third design and 5 hour print for the bottom half of one of the support towers for a trestle I'm trying to get done (at least during print time I can do something else.

For me, I did some scratch building 50 years ago and liked it.  Now coming back into the hobby about 6 years ago and with the time it takes to build the layout and do the electronic projects (throttles, command station & speedometers) I don't/haven't picked up the scratch building skills I'd need to have to put together the buildings I need.  If I was even 10 years younger I'd possibly go that route more but I'm not and in my 80's now probably won't.

I'm happy with my 3D printed buildings but think a well built scratch built one looks better 

Sumner

[Lemosteam]

The thing about 3D printing for me is that you must think "Kit".  Every design can be broken down into multiple bits that can be assembled.  The trick is knowing how to design interfaces that allow for location and alignment of each bit, like the pins and holes in a model airplane.  Most think that, hey, if I can print the whole thing in one go, then its good.  Whale that is possible it can lead to added supports, print time, etc. where print quality can be affected.

I am working on a project now and the D2 is allowing me to develop fitments as good or better than some of my Shapeways designs.  They were able to maintain print tolerances that allowed for 0.05mm fitment gaps between parts, and now that I can do the same on my D2, I am finding kitting to be a great way to get the print quality I want for each individual part, and at the same time, I am getting the fitment that I want between parts such as close fits and even snap features.  Case in point is my water spout shown above where the spout snaps into is base allowing it to be posed.  Surprisingly I am even able to disassemble the parts without breaking the snap joint.

[Sumner]

... Every design can be broken down into multiple bits that can be assembled....

Yep, besides designing something that hopefully looks good one has to constantly consider how/if you can print it and it still looks good and can you assembly it like you mentioned.  Also are you going to print part or all of it on a filament printer or a resin printer.  I have some designs that print well on a filament printer but not a resin printer and the other way around.  With any printer there are going to be sides that look better than other sides, so you hopefully can hide the bad sides in that they aren't visible when the object is put together.



I have much better results printing something like part of the WiFi throttle shown above (3 case parts to the left) with a filament printer and it is stronger but ....



.... printed some of the internals (parts to the right in the first picture and the one above) for the same throttle easier and with better results with my resin printer vs. if I would of tried printing them with the filament printer. 

I need both printers in my life and they weren't that expensive at $200 each.  The resin printer though has other items needed that about doubles the cost for it.

Sumner

[peteski]

Yes, some designers desing and print things like an N scale automobile with detailed interior as a single print.  How the heck do you paint and detail those models? 
 Like John mentioned, it takes more than just being able to draw a 3D design. It needs to be designed in such a way that the model can be reasonably easy to decorate.  Even things like windows could be separate (to avoid the paini in the arse when tryign to paint the old DPM kits where the entire building side is molded as a singe part).

[Chris333]

This N scale building looks impressive:
https://www.etsy.com/listing/1832968203/n-scale-prr-steubenville-oh-freight?ls=s&ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=n+scale+train+depot&ref=sr_gallery-1-10&content_source=b4dc5d94cf5d36ea8a015b3412f70f0e112eac78%253A1832968203&organic_search_click=1&logging_key=b4dc5d94cf5d36ea8a015b3412f70f0e112eac78%3A1832968203

[John]

This N scale building looks impressive:
https://www.etsy.com/listing/1832968203/n-scale-prr-steubenville-oh-freight?ls=s&ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=n+scale+train+depot&ref=sr_gallery-1-10&content_source=b4dc5d94cf5d36ea8a015b3412f70f0e112eac78%253A1832968203&organic_search_click=1&logging_key=b4dc5d94cf5d36ea8a015b3412f70f0e112eac78%3A1832968203

Nice model .. If I was modeling Steubenville - I certainly would get it ..   btw .. some guy with a Russian website is trying to sell it for $49 https://chepestdiscount.ru -- scam