Atlas Trainmaster

[tehachapifan]

Was the debate about using oil versus (dielectric) grease as a lubricant for loco axle point/cup bearings ever resolved?

On a related note regarding axle points wearing thru axle cups if no oil is applied, has it been absolutely confirmed that this will happen under normal running conditions? I remember seeing one photo a long time ago showing holes in axle cups that were supposedly caused by this, but that was all I've ever seen (and were there other extenuating circumstances in that case, like did it run non-stop for a very long period of time at high speed?). One one hand it makes sense but on the other it's hard for me to envision it making much a difference in such a tiny contact area. Plus, wouldn't the oil potentially cause conductivity issues...if not immediately but pretty soon with accumulated debris? On my SW1500 bashes with the old Con-Cor/Kato drives (the ones with no axle points/cups and a high-friction bearing on the inside of the wheels, which also conduct power from the wheels to the truck tower halves), I can't apply any oil at all (at least the ones I tried) without seriously affecting conductivity immediately. Not trying to be argumentative, just really want to know if this is a known, proven fact. Has anyone here ever had axle cups worn thru? I get it's better to be safe than sorry on this, but sometimes wonder if it's an exercise in futility.

[davefoxx]

Was the debate about using oil versus (dielectric) grease as a lubricant for loco axle point/cup bearings ever resolved?

A small drop of oil will be fine.  In fact, I was advised to do this by the folks at Atlas when my HO locomotives started squeaking.  Problem resolved and no problems with electrical continuity.

DFF

[MichaelWinicki]

I admit I do not "oil the cups" on any my loco's that utilize that form of electrical pickup.  Once they're wiped clean of gunk & grease I leave'em that way.

I have too many locomotives and I rotate them out so they never see hours upon hours of continuous use like one would find at a train show for instance. 

I can see how one could possibly burn through that brass strip with a whole-lotta use but I've never encountered that with any my locomotives and many are now over decade old and probably have been run (especially the Trainmasters) several hundred hours.  Nor have I had issues with the wheels needing to be replaced due to wear.

[Steveruger45]

I don’t know all about the theories on to “lube or not to lube” the axle cups but I always have.  I have used both the light Labelle lube (forget the number) and more recently “conducta lube”. Like @davefoxx, I haven’t had any axle cups wear holes and they haven’t picked up a lot of Gunk either.  I don’t think I would use any sort of grease though.
I’m wondering if the cause for wearing holes in the axle cups is not caused by  too tight a mechanical fit such as can happen when putting in Kato wheels in to replace atlas wheels if the Kato wheels are not adjusted first by pressing in the exposed pointy end of the axle a tad.

[peteski]

Was the debate about using oil versus (dielectric) grease as a lubricant for loco axle point/cup bearings ever resolved?

"Dielectric" means non-conductive. Oil by default is non-conductive.  Did you mean electrically-conductive lubricant?  I do remember discussions about it,  but not the outcome.

I do not use any special conductive lubricants - just some Woodland Scenics light oil.  It prevents oxidation (like any oil does), and provides lubrication to the needle-point bearings.

[Point353]

"Dielectric" means non-conductive. Oil by default is non-conductive.  Did you mean electrically-conductive lubricant?  I do remember discussions about it,  but not the outcome.

I do not use any special conductive lubricants - just some Woodland Scenics light oil.  It prevents oxidation (like any oil does), and provides lubrication to the needle-point bearings.

I can't locate the thread, but one of the participants was suggesting/advocating the use of dielectric grease.
Part of the discussion/debate was the pros and cons of using a non-conductive lubricant in that type of application.

[tehachapifan]

I can't imagine any pro's to using something non-conductive in such an incredibly important conduction point, but would love to see the thread. There are certainly plenty of people here that are way smarter then me....or, is it I?

[peteski]

I can't locate the thread, but one of the participants was suggesting/advocating the use of dielectric grease.
Part of the discussion/debate was the pros and cons of using a non-conductive lubricant in that type of application.

Lubricants (oils and greases) are all non-conductive.  There are specialized conductive lubricants (usually made conductive by adding powdered metal), but they are expensive and not often used in hobby applications.


Maybe old Victor Miranda "bulb grease" testimonial is what you are looking for?
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=36534.msg434185#msg434185

No-lubrication in the bearing cup is asking for trouble.  2 rubbing metal surfaces need lubrication.   Atlas fills those cups with grease. I don't believe that is the best practice.  I clean those cups and put a small drop of light oil in the cup, then wick most of it with paper towel.

[peteski]

On a related note regarding axle points wearing thru axle cups if no oil is applied, has it been absolutely confirmed that this will happen under normal running conditions? I remember seeing one photo a long time ago showing holes in axle cups that were supposedly caused by this, but that was all I've ever seen (and were there other extenuating circumstances in that case, like did it run non-stop for a very long period of time at high speed?). One one hand it makes sense but on the other it's hard for me to envision it making much a difference in such a tiny contact area. Plus, wouldn't the oil potentially cause conductivity issues...if not immediately but pretty soon with accumulated debris? On my SW1500 bashes with the old Con-Cor/Kato drives (the ones with no axle points/cups and a high-friction bearing on the inside of the wheels, which also conduct power from the wheels to the truck tower halves), I can't apply any oil at all (at least the ones I tried) without seriously affecting conductivity immediately. Not trying to be argumentative, just really want to know if this is a known, proven fact. Has anyone here ever had axle cups worn thru? I get it's better to be safe than sorry on this, but sometimes wonder if it's an exercise in futility.

I posted such a photo in the NeoLube thread https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=47825.msg631665#msg631665

[Teditor]

Been there done that on several models, especially Atlas.

Ted (Teditor) Freeman

[Maletrain]

Now that you mentioned NeoLube, what was the decision about using that for axle lubrication?  I know it eventually rubs off, but so does graphite and even grease.  It seems like NeoLube would be pretty easy to apply on a routine basis.

[Point353]

Maybe old Victor Miranda "bulb grease" testimonial is what you are looking for?
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=36534.msg434185#msg434185

Ah yes, bulb grease.

[Maletrain]

It is possible to make electrical contact between metal surfaces that are lubed with a dielectric grease.  I do it all the time on boat light bulbs.  The metal contact completes the circuit, while the grease keeps the air out of the rest of the thread to thread open volume so as to prevent corrosion.  The Navy used to do that with "Naval Jelly", which seemed to must be petroleum jelly.

But, putting petroleum jelly in N scale axle pickups seems like the way to make really nasty gunk.

I also remember a guy demonstrating a thin spray on a light bulb base and lighting it under water with a couple of wires.  I never checked to know if they were really at 110 VAC, but it looked like that kind of bulb.

[peteski]

It is possible to make electrical contact between metal surfaces that are lubed with a dielectric grease.  I do it all the time on boat light bulbs.  The metal contact completes the circuit, while the grease keeps the air out of the rest of the thread to thread open volume so as to prevent corrosion.  The Navy used to do that with "Naval Jelly", which seemed to must be petroleum jelly.

But, putting petroleum jelly in N scale axle pickups seems like the way to make really nasty gunk.

I also remember a guy demonstrating a thin spray on a light bulb base and lighting it under water with a couple of wires.  I never checked to know if they were really at 110 VAC, but it looked like that kind of bulb.

Yes, oil coated metal parts will conduct electricity when they are in contact with each other.  I also prefer light oil to lubricate the truck's bearing cups (not grease).

I believe that Atlas' Conducta-Lube  description states that it improves electrical conductivity (by preventing oxidation).  Conducta-Lube is *NOT* electrically conductive.

As far as lighting up a 110V bulb under water, if it was plain (not salt) water, then that would not be a problem (with or without the oiled metal socket). Plain water is an electrical insulator.  But Ocean (salted) water conducts electricity fairly well.